saving private ryan

[Jon Skagfeld]

Coincidence. Here in Canada that same show aired a couple of days ago.

One discrepancy pointed out was that, in the film, the American Rangers went ashore in LCVPs, the US all steel armoured Landing Craft Vehicles and Personnel.

In fact they boarded British wooden boats which only had an armoured ramp.

Also,the myth of soldiers receiving mortal wounds while they were in the water was exploded.

Pretty good background material to a story line based on the Sullivan brothers, and the US Government's policy thereto.

[motto]

What they didn't state in the program but is very obvious is that for a person to be protected from small arms fire by water they would need to be completely submerged and perhaps at least a foot beneath the surface. The most common scenario under assault conditions would be for the troops in the water to be breathing hard and trying to avoid drowning. i.e. NOT completely submerged. The water would have been little protection and would if anything have helped the German gunners to adjust their aim.

David

[Mike K]

What was interesting was they attempted to re create the sniper shot , where the German is shot through the scope

In the movie, it was 450 yards range , a quite improbable scenario .

They set up a modern sniper on a range , initially at 100 yards , perfect shot first time . The second attempt at 400 yards was less successful . on the third shot the bullet grazed the scope . They stated that, because of the laws of physics, over that distance, the bullett traces an arc and it would not enter the scope on a level angle, rather it would enter the scope from above , thus making that scene in the movie , impossible in real life

For us vehicle nuts , the German truck on the beach, was a 1950's Morris MRA1 4X4 . They obviously employed the wrong adviser on the movie set .

[Harry Moon]

I think they got more right than they got wrong

[Mike Cecil]

Can't say I ever heard that the range was 450 yards for the sniper shot in the village in SPR. Looked a lot less than that considering the size of the image in the German's scope. The German would have been in the next village at 450 yards range! Still: who cares? GREAT movie, followed by two excellent series: Band of Brothers and Pacific. Bring on more quality movies/series like those, I say.

There is a credited 'through the scope' shot taken by a USMC sniper in Vietnam. Carlos Hathcock just managed to outwit an NVA sniper out hunting him. He reportedly recovered the rifle and scope, but it got swallowed up by the US intelligence system, so the story goes.

Mike C

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Can't say I ever heard that the range was 450 yards for the sniper shot in the village in SPR. Looked a lot less than that considering the size of the image in the German's scope. The German would have been in the next village at 450 yards range! Still: who cares? GREAT movie, followed by two excellent series: Band of Brothers and Pacific. Bring on more quality movies/series like those, I say.

There is a credited 'through the scope' shot taken by a USMC sniper in Vietnam. Carlos Hathcock just managed to outwit an NVA sniper out hunting him. He reportedly recovered the rifle and scope, but it got swallowed up by the US intelligence system, so the story goes.

Mike C

They mentioned that Vietnam scenario you refer to. They said it was around 100 yards range.

In the SPR movie, the sniper is a soldier called Jackson, Jackson does say that the range is 450 yds , listen closely and you will hear him .

The 'expert' on that show said, the Rangers would not have been used on a mission such as portrayed in SPR . 'Hollywood fantasy' or something similar he said .

Anyway , these recent productions are miles ahead of the crap made in the 1960's . Movies such as ' Battle of the Bulge' are a classic stuff up . Still, there is the odd modern stuff up 'Pearl Harbour' is one '

[motto]

Beware the tumbling bullet.

Continuing with the theme of bullet behaviour, one of the reasons given in the program for water providing protection from small arms fire is that the water caused the bullet to tumble thus dissipating energy more quickly. A tumbling bullet also makes for far more serious wounds if it strikes a human body so being immersed or partly submerged in water may very well work against you.

The .303 British rifle cartridge went through many changes in its development including hollow point versions often referred to as dum dum bullets. These were later outlawed by the Geneva Convention. The bullet designers went back to the drawing board and ultimately came up with the Mark 7 projectile which incorporates a cunning feature that even most of the users were unaware of. The core of the 174 grain fully copper jacketed bullet was not entirely lead filled, the first 5/16" or so was in fact aluminium or composite material much lighter than lead.

The effect of the plug of lighter material at the front of the bullet was to shift the centre of gravity slightly aft making the bullet less stable if it encountered resistance, ie it was demonstrably more prone to tumble when it struck something instead of continuing straight through leaving a neat round hole.

The Mk 7 Ball cartridge as it is correctly titled was the standard rifle round used by British and Commonwealth forces before during and after WW2. It was produced in the billions and had a nasty little secret.

David