WW2 Canadian, Australian and New Zealand Transport

[Mike Cecil]

Yes, Tony, the commercial aspects ... 'business as usual' ... seemed to prevail and the Australian government were very conscious about maintaining exports and a balance of trade.

I'm not sure many people appreciate (as you do) just how much of the merchant fleets used/chartered by the Allies during the war were essentially foreign: much of the military hardware transported to and from Australia went on Dutch, Greek, Danish, Norwegian, and other, 'non-Dominion' shipping. Many were equipped with defensive armament (eg deck guns and paravanes) in Australian ports and in some instances manned by Australian service personnel.

Mike C

[David Dunlop]

Back in the 1960's I had a summer job with a Winnipeg Grain Company and our Commodities Department shared an office with the Export Department. They used to have a set of large, red, leather bound journals published by Lloyd's in Export which they referenced when arranging to ship goods. I recall they gave a pretty complete description and history of each vessel contained therein, and the records went back at least ten years or more with regards to noting when a ship had been lost at sea, scrapped, or was in for overhaul somewhere. Quite an interesting read.

Canada operated a large merchant fleet during the war, but I can think of only one foreign vessel they took over. I believe it was an Italian cargo ship that tried to make a run for it down the St. Lawrence, when Italy declared war. It was intercepted around Rimouski, QC and added to the Canadian Fleet. I think a U-Boat finally sank it on the way to Britain a couple of years later.

David

[Mike Cecil]

David,

I think that would be the Capo Noli, captured in the StL Seaway by HMCS Bras d'Or on 10 June 1940, and renamed the SS Bic Island. She was sunk by U224 on 29 October 1942, with the tragic loss of all hands and the rescued survivors of two other merchant ships.

I think you'll find there were a small number of prize vessels on the Canadian register during WW2 from a variety of countries: Finland, Denmark, Germany and Italy. I think this was the only Italian vessel. Carolus was ex-Finland, and MV Europa was ex-Danish. Vancouver Island was ex-German. Certainly an interesting period in shipping history!

Brian: what a great recollection! And gives us the ship that some of the Canadians travelled on, too. The MV Roseville is listed as a cargo ship with capacity for 12 first class passengers. Wonder how many they crammed into that space during the war.

Mike C

[motto]

What an interesting thread! A glimpse of the legal ramifications and nuts and bolts of maritime warfare.

Of course, the precedence in regards to commercial shipping operations during time of war had been set and refined over hundreds of years and were well understood. Even global war and ocean wide operations were nothing new.

As an example. During the war of 1812 the Royal Navy blockaded the entire East Coast of the United States at the same time as strangling all French ports and shipping. This inevitably involved interfering with shipping of other nations. The legal implications were awesome and also had to be dealt with.

Lloyds of London were not about to close their doors for the duration.

David

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by motto

Even global war and ocean wide operations were nothing new. As an example. During the war of 1812 the Royal Navy blockaded the entire East Coast of the United States at the same time as strangling all French ports and shipping. This inevitably involved interfering with shipping of other nations.

...meanwhile Napoleon blockaded the Baltic to deny the British their lucrative trade routes, thus interfering with even more nations shipping!

An even earlier example of global maritime warfare/commerce would be the various East India Trading Companies - British, Dutch, Portuguese, Danish, French, Swedish - who roamed the world's seas in heavily armed gunships, plying their trade and conquering new empires as they went, and routinely engaging eachother on the high seas to defend their sales territory! This went on for a couple of centuries, with the British EITC ultimately prevailing - hence the British Empire, with a few crumbs left for the rest to colonize!

As you say David it's an interesting thread, although we seem to have digressed a bit from CMP shipments!

[David Dunlop]

With regards to Dutch shipping during WW2, my Mum travelled in a convoy from Liverpool to Algeria aboard the SS Volendam in late 1941 early 1942. She was with the NAAFI at the time.

With regards to the wartime CMP activity across the Pacific, firstly, 'Holden' is associated with General Motors in Australia. Where were Ford's operations based? Also, did most sea traffic arrive at one particular port, or was it spread around as much as possible? I seem to remember reading about a large military base somewhere on the West Coast of Australia where a number of CMP vehicles were abandoned after the war. Not sure I ever heard why.

David

[Keith Webb]

Ford were based (and still are there) in Geelong which is a port city not far from Melbourne. The main General Motors Holden factory was at Fishermens Bend which is adjacent to Melbourne. GM-H assembled CMPs in most Australian capital cities. They also had greater body building facilities and were responsible for most of the locally built GS bodies as well as a lot of the specialised bodies on CMPs here.
Ford did build some of the specialised bodies for their own chassis such as No8 and 9 gun tractors, while GM-H also built their own version, which may seem strange for small production runs but they had integral cabs which had different floors.

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

With regards to Dutch shipping during WW2, my Mum travelled in a convoy from Liverpool to Algeria aboard the SS Volendam in late 1941 early 1942. She was with the NAAFI at the time.

With regards to the wartime CMP activity across the Pacific, firstly, 'Holden' is associated with General Motors in Australia. Where were Ford's operations based? Also, did most sea traffic arrive at one particular port, or was it spread around as much as possible? I seem to remember reading about a large military base somewhere on the West Coast of Australia where a number of CMP vehicles were abandoned after the war. Not sure I ever heard why.

David

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

much of the merchant fleets used/chartered by the Allies during the war were essentially foreign: much of the military hardware transported to and from Australia went on Dutch, Greek, Danish, Norwegian, and other, 'non-Dominion' shipping.

It's a good point you make Mike, we tend to regard such countries as having been sidelined by German occupation, but of course the bulk of their shipping remained at sea and made a huge contribution to the Allied war effort. We also forget that relatively small countries like Norway, Denmark, and the Netherlands were possessed of enormous merchant fleets, dating from their historical association with the Baltic trade. It would be interesting to know the actual figures, but I suspect that in the early years of WW2, perhaps a third of Allied merchant shipping was foreign. Given that shipping was the limiting factor in Allied strategy, it's difficult to overestimate that contribution.