40 mm Bofors AA guns made in GB and US

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

According to the "La FN et les canons Bofors" published by Belgian Army Museum in December 1989 this picture is showing Belgian troops in Africa.

I do not beleive that. The gun is clearly a British or Commonwealt made with pre-1943 sights on a MK 2 carriage. Note wheels removed.

But what unit could it be?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
Thank You Hanno and thank You Tony for these pictures. How do You get them from AWM? I havn´t been able to find that out yet.

Find the picture, click right mouse and "save as...". Attach the picture file to your message here quoting the source and at least the picture ID so others can find it back if needed.

HTH,
H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Hanno, thanks for the input. The trailers were apparently to contract S/M 6288 'Trailer 1 ton 2wh G/S' with one batch 'G/S and/or Gen.'

In the thread On a Normandy beach... Steve Guthrie noted "one of the Canadian loading tables for D-Day mentions the use 'Trailers, Jahn'. Jahn was one of the manufacturers of the standard US Army 1-ton trailer".

The final open cab as you say was the Type or Number 43S which was a hard, open, wider, cab with little relationship to the 43 it seems unless the windscreen had common parts!!

Did not know that, thanks. Learned something new today about CMPs!

H.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Thank you Hanno!

Now let us see if it works.

Ordnance Factory Maribyrnong, Australia. Guns beeing assembled 12 Oct 1942. As I understand the difficult parts of the breech were made by Chrysler in USA and shipped to Australia.

AWM nr 026845.

SEE PICTURE A FEW POSTS BELOW!

[nuyt]

Stellan,
These are indeed Congolese troops, well very likely. I suppose you are right about the gun. If its not a FN type, then it's possible it was supplied by the allies during WW2 stright to Congo?
Nuyt

Overvalwagens!

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Thanks!

Perhaps a post-war photo.

Congo Belge bought a number of guns (20?) direct from Bofors and probably some from FN in Liège. All those had rivetted carriages with short wheelbase. The Belgian sights were of the reflex mirror type.

Stellan

[nuyt]

did they buy these?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
HOW TO MAKE THE PICCTURE LARGER?

Nearly there, Stellan:
1) Search for AWM nr 026845.
2) Click "enlarge image".
3) Click right mouse and "Save Picture As...".
4) Follow rest of procedure quoted above.

HTH,
H.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

When?

I do not know yet. Will try to find out. In "Boforskanonen" Stockholm 1961, page 18, there is a reference to a manuscript written 1943 by Harald C:son Graim, sales manager for Bofors in Belgium.

Translated: "Belgian Congo had an independant Defense Force and there I managed to get some contracts for the 40 mm gun".

Same book page 173. Orders from Belgium:
Aug 1935 - 8 guns (delivered from Bofors 1936, confirmed)
Feb 1936 - 20 guns (for Congo? my guess)
1939 - 106 guns (probably never delivered)

The 1939 order I think was a stop-gap measure. The FN production went quite well (despite what is written in Terry Ganders book) and a lot of guns were made in Herstal-Liège and also for export.

But in 1939 the Belgians got fears for a German attack and decided to move the production line from Liège to a "safe" place called Anzegem (10 km East of Courtrai).

On 12 May 1940 everything that could be moved from the Anzegem factory was in a hurry sent to France.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Ordnance Factory Maribyrnong 12 Oct 1942.

Note the number 13 painted in white on the carriage.

[nuyt]

The sale to the independent defense force probalby refers to the post war period when there was the "Force Publique"
I dont think the Belgians would have sent 20 (or any) Bofors gun to Africa in 1936, which was under no threat at all. The orders from the 1930's must have been all for Belgium.
Still would say the gun on the pic was delvered by the Allies druing WW2
Nuyt

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Hmm?

The manuscript is written 1943 - so it cannot be post WW 2 sales. Belgian Congo like the Netherlands East Indies bought their equipment independently from the motherland.

I agree that there was no threat against Beligan Congo pre WW 2 (or even during WW 2).

It took some two years from the purchase of licence rights to the production really started.

[nuyt]

I thought the manuscript was from 1961, my mistake,
Nuyt

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Could someone correct the terms I have translated.

(Gun Mk I on carriage Mk II or III modernized with 1944 "Stiffkey-Stick" sights and protective shields)

1. Barrel
2. Flash eliminator
3. Recoil housing
4. Recuperator
5. Elevation quadrant
6. Counterbalance
7. Firing pedal
8. Foot rest
9. Barrel clamp pillar (for transport)
10. Barrel clamp
11. Chassis
12. Jacks (4 pcs)
13. Wheels
14. Outriggers (left and right)
15. Gun platform
16. Towing hook
17. Case ejector chute (upper)
18. Case ejector chute (lower)
19. Seat for gunlayer
20. Predictor (target calculator)
21. Autoloader
22. Breech casing
23. Fire selector (secure - single shot - full auto)
24. Recoil spring
25. Trunnion
26. Sights
27. Armoured shield

[John McGillivray]

Hello Stellan,

I made a visit to the museum at the Longue Pointe depot in east end Montreal. They have a 40mm Bofors as part of their collection.

On the carriage there are the following markings on a data plate:

Plat 40mm AAM TGS Mk II
O.F.E.C. 1942
RECD No 10560

Engraved on the barrel just under the Royal Crest was the Following:

Q.F. 40mm Mk I
19 OFE/C 42
RIFLING Mk. I
BARREL No L/24667

John

[bubbaandshaff]

We keep this rare WWII Bofors gun on a shelf in the basement.

[bubbaandshaff]

From the other side.

[Bill Murray]

Regarding the photo of the Bofors in the Belgian Congo, it would seem that footwear (Boots-Combat MK1) were optional for the local forces.
Of the three feet that are visible in the photo, none are shod and I did use a magnifying glass.
And we think we have military budget problems.
As I know little about Bofors guns, I thought this was at least a reasonable contribution to the thread.
Cheers
Bill

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
Belgian Congo like the Netherlands East Indies bought their equipment independently from the motherland.

Here is a pic of a NEI Bofors (posted earlier in Canadian Chevrolet Maple Leaf 4x4 artillery tractors?), captioned as follows:

"Natives of the Netherlands East Indies have long been on the alert against the expected Japanese aggression. They have realized for ten years that the natural wealth of their islands would eventually mean a Japanese move for "unification," and air raid defenses such as these have long been ready for action. The crew is composed of members of the Royal Netherlands Indian (sic) Army. During action they wear steel helmets, rather than the bamboo hats shown here."


Source: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/fsahtml/fahome.html
Digital ID: fsa 8b13123 [/B]

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
I made a visit to the museum at the Longue Pointe depot in east end Montreal.

Thank you John! Those numbers are of great help for me.

Stellan

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
Could someone correct the terms I have translated.

Stellan, I'll have a go since no one else has; even though you have asked, it is not considered polite to correct the English of a non-native speaker when the meaning is understood but the grammar and word usage is perhaps unusual or incorrect.

Having spent many months in Sweden some years ago, we again find everyone spoke good English, thereby absolving us of any effort to learn another.

I do not have any official Bofors reference works to hand but I think the names are quite common.


2. Flash hider - possibly flash eliminator, "hider" is more of an American term.

4. Recoil tube - difficult to see, is this the recuperator?

5. Elevation arch - elevation quadrant (gear).

6. Equalizer - counterbalance (?)

7. Pedal-trigger - trigger pedal/firing pedal

9. Barrel fix bar (for transport) - Barrel clamp pillar.

10. Barrel lock - barrel clamp

11. Carriage main body - chassis

17. Rail for disposal of empty cartridges (upper part) - case ejection chute (upper)

18. Rail for disposal of empty cartridges (lower part) - case ejection chute (lower)

19. Chair for gunlayer - seat

23. Switch (secure - single shot - full auto) - firing selector

25. Main gunmount - trunnion


R.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

How to identify a 40 mm Bofors L/60 gun.

The Gun

It is only possible to see if a gun is of the air-cooled type or the water-cooled Navy type.

There are however three types of Army Bofors guns:

1) Made in Europe (except Great Britain)
2) Made in Great Britain and Commonwealth
3) Made in USA

Type 1 guns are handicraft made. Types 2 and 3 mass-production. In USA Chrysler managed to reduce production hours for making a gun with some 50%.

The only way to identify the gun itself is by finding the marks on various parts. Mainly on the left side of the breech.

The carriage

The carriages are of five main types

1) Rivetted short wheelbase. Jacks outside the wheels. Wheels still attached to carriage also when the gun is in battery position. Box shaped outriggers.

This type is found on:

a) Various European countries guns
b) British Mk I and Mk IA
c) US M 1 (British made - some 200 to USA from GB early 1942)

2) As above but welded. Only US carriage M 2 wich was standard during WW 2.

3) Welded long wheelbase. Jacks inside the wheels. Wheels removed when in battery position. GB carriage Mk II and Canadian Mk C 2. Round shaped outriggers.

The GB Mk III carriage is similar to Mk II but have only overrun brakes on front wheels.

4) Two wheel carriages for air transport. GB and US variants.

5) Self Propelled mounts on trucks and tanks.

Armoured protective shields were added to British carriages (both MK I and MK II) in 1944. US Army guns did not have shields during WW 2.

Of the Axis powers only Hungary added shields in 1944.

The Wheels

The wheels could by dimension and type of wheeldisc be divided in:

1) European type
2) British and Commonwealth type
3) US type

The Sights

There are several types of sights and those could help to identify nationality and time period.

1) Optical reflex mirror sights. By the British called "Polish" sights. These were attached to a predictor or target calculator attached to the right side of the breech.

The calculators were of three main types. Bofors, Goerz and Johasz-Gamma but the sights for these types looks basically the same.

2) Early pre-1943 GB "small spider-web" sights. The left sight (elevation)with cross-wires and the right (traverse) with three vertical wires. Called "Forward Area Sighting System".

3) GB 1943 "large spider-web" sights. Three crosswire rings for target speed 100 - 200 - 300 mph. Called "Cartwheel Foresight" or sometimes "Pancake sights". On the Australian version the right (traverse) sight is almoast rectangular.

4) The US standard "spider-web" sights are somewhat larger than the early GB type but smaller than the GB 1943 type.

5) GB 1944 Correctional Sight called "Stiffkey-Stick". This has a calculator attached above and somewhat right of the left (elevation) sight. This sight require a special sight operator in addition to the two gunlayers. The sight operator was standing on the platform between and behind the gunlayers.

6) US 1944 "Sight Computing" M 7 and M 7A1 is a US made "Stiffley-Stick" and operates in the same way.

7) The GB No 3 Predictor or "Kerrison-Predictor" is a box with two small binoculars. It was placed on a tripod (or post 1943 on a separate truck) and attached to the gun with an electrical cable. On the gun platform there were two electrical motors for laying the gun.

the Uniforms

Especially various headgears are helpful when it comes down to identify the nationality of a gun (but not where made).

So now it starts. You should be able to identify:
1) Carriage type
2) Wheels type
3) Sights type
4) Environment type
5) Nationality group

And these facts together gives an idea of where and when.
(Right answer could be found by the AWM number).

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

If You answered: MK I carriage, pre 1943 sights and GB/Commonwealth troops in the Middle East You are right.

Note "European" type of wheels. With a MK I carriage goes usually also a MK I or MK I* gun (MK I* has a slightly different autoloader - not possible to see on a picture).


Now this would be an easy one:

1) Carriage
2) Wheels
3) Sights

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

That last one was easy - or not?

Answer: US M 1 on M 2 carriage. (All US Army Bofors 40 mm guns are M 1). Note "American" type of wheels.

And now this one:

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

The last one should be a MK III on MK II carriage if it was British or a C Mk 1 on C Mk 2 carriage if it was Canadian.

But it is not. See Australian hats on the spectators. Australia 1943.

But what were these guns called in Australia? Mk ??



Next one:Added later: All Australian made guns (290 pcs) were Mk I*

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by FV623
Stellan, I'll have a go since no one else has; even though you have asked, it is not considered polite to correct the English of a non-native speaker when the meaning is understood but the grammar and word usage is perhaps unusual or incorrect.

R.

Thank you indeed!

I translated from a French description. Preparing a book on the Bofors guns I am eager to use the correct words when describing the gun.

I served on an exchange basis in a US National Guard Artillery Brigade in Colorado, but that was back in 1978 and I have forgotten the correct military expressions.

(In exchange we had an US lieutenant serving with "my" regiment, the 1st Guards Infantry in Stockholm).

Stellan

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

The last picture above shows the Australian type of sights.

Now the "Polish" reflex mirror sights. These look basically the same regardless of beeing made in Belgium, Finland, Hungary, Poland or Sweden.

In Great Britain these sights were only used on the first batches of imported Mk I guns.

I beleive that those sights were in GB later replaced by "spider-web" sights. This for facilitating training.

Note the mixed German WW 1 and WW 2 helmets. The soldier extreme right has a WW 1 German Cavalry helmet.

Finland 1941-44 war.

[Attilio]

I have seen in this forum several pics of Bofors gun portee.
Where it used in North Africa by Commonwhealth forces?

Thanks
Attilio

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Photo 28th March 1940. The slightly different reflex mirror sight on this gun suggests to me that this is a m/35 Bofors FC sight.

So this gun could be one of the first batch bought by Britain from Sweden in May 1937.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Attilio
I have seen in this forum several pics of Bofors gun portee.
Where it used in North Africa by Commonwhealth forces?

Thanks
Attilio

I do not beleive Bofors gun portees were used in North Africa because they were mainly coming into service after medio 1944 and by then the war was over in North Africa.

Stellan