Photos needed. Shed full of S**t Auction

[Tony Wheeler]

I can furnish info and pics of the winch itself as I have the exact same unit on a blitz, but of course I'm no help with the jeep related parts.

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi Tony,

Thanks very much for the offer mate! I have a Dawn #2 winch here also, but was more hoping to see an original one to be fitted to a jeep, with the hope hat the pics might have had some other details of the handle and mechanisms etc (which as you can see from the pic is a complicated little bugger!).

I have some info on these, but was hoping to see one 'in the flesh' or as close as those pics would be.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Ian Fawbert

details of the handle and mechanisms etc (which as you can see from the pic is a complicated little bugger!)

Yes it's got me puzzled too Ian, it almost looks likes a power drive rather than a manual handle, but either way it still makes no sense to me. Hopefully one of the jeep guys here knows more and will chime in.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

Yes it's got me puzzled too Ian, it almost looks likes a power drive rather than a manual handle, but either way it still makes no sense to me. Hopefully one of the jeep guys here knows more and will chime in.

Ian,
It looks like the short shaft at outer end of winding shaft, folds out and locks, so it is away from the body and a cranking handle with a flat bar slides in the end of it. Only power is one man!

regards, Richard

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

a cranking handle with a flat bar slides in the end of it.

Thanks Richard, I finally get the idea now! I hadn't considered that slot in the outer boss, which is the correct size for the Dawn crank handle, and provides variable cranking radius by sliding through to the desired position according to cable load. That would be essential with this modification kit because the winch is fixed permanently in low ratio, so you'd need to shorten the handle to wind it rapidly, particularly when reeling in loose cable after winching.

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Presumably the folding shaft extension is designed to protect it from damage through tree strikes etc., and while the locking mechanism isn't quite clear to me there's obviously a retaining cage of some kind, possibly sprung, to keep it in both the locked and retracted positions. All in all a rather clever design and no doubt a very welcome piece of kit when bogged in a jeep with no CMP nearby to tow you out! Yes it would be a bit slower than a power winch but sure beats trying to push it out with spinning wheels covering you in mud!

BTW it turns out my own winch is a No.5 so I'm not sure what's on this jeep because it looks identical to me. Is there any major difference between the No.2 and No.5 ? As you can see it came with a home made short handle as well as the Dawn handle, and while the short one is much faster to use and a lot more ergonomic, it starts to become hard work for anything heavier than a ton so I switched to the Dawn handle. It's a pain in the neck to swing through such a wide arc but I need the extra leverage for lift towing.

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[Mike Cecil]

I assume a Dawn No.2 simply means a two ton capacity winch, which is what the 'Kit's Recovery' specified, along with 120 feet of 3/8 inch wire rope. (So is a Dawn No.5 a 5 ton capacity winch with, presumably, a heavier/thicker rope?)

The winch assembly and fitting was described in MGO Equipment Memorandum 13 of Sept 1944 - which I assume is what Ian is using as his main reference. The kits were manufactured by Ford Motor Company (there is more to the kit than the basic Dawn winch), with 230 kits ordered under CD-E8745.

Problems were encountered in the supply of the correct diameter wire rope, which slowed delivery until a variation to design was authorized.

Have never been able to find anything definitive on the number built, but judging from photo images, I'd guess not very many made it onto the front of jeeps.


Mike C

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

So is a Dawn No.5 a 5 ton capacity winch with, presumably, a heavier/thicker rope?

The same thought occurred to me the other day Mike when I learned it was a No.5 but I couldn't find any info on the net. However I believe it's just a Dawn ID number rather than a capacity rating, and there's certainly no such claim on the winch itself. It looks pretty much the same as the one on the jeep so I don't see how it could be 2 1/2 times stronger. Also if the front of that Cab 12 weighs in the vicinity of 2 tons as I imagine it would, then based on the force required on the long Dawn crank handle I would consider that to be a reasonable rating, bearing in mind they're usually on the conservative side. I'm sure it could lift more, especially with less cable on the drum, but even if it could lift 5 tons, which I'm inclined to doubt, I would definitely rule it out as a rating for all practical purposes. I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to hang off the end of the handle with your feet kicking wildly in the air trying to turn it!

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[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

and while the locking mechanism isn't quite clear to me there's obviously a retaining cage of some kind, possibly sprung, to keep it in both the locked and retracted positions.

Hi Tony,

It may have an arrangement at the folding joint, not unlike that on the crank handle support legs of semi-trailers. One part of the shaft could have a male extension that enters in to a hole in the other part and hinge joint could be slotted to allow the shafts to lock together.

Richard

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

........ because the winch is fixed permanently in low ratio, so you'd need to shorten the handle to wind it rapidly, particularly when reeling in loose cable after winching.

Attachment 62966

I'd like to see a better pic of the mounting of the vertical post that supports the crank handle/shaft. Is it fixed in a vertical position? If it pivots about the chassis rail, then the drive gear could be withdrawn from the Low Ratio position and re-inserted in the High ratio position. The attachment of the cranking shaft to the drive gear seems too over-complex for a fixed alignment.

[Brett Nicholls]

You read my mind Mr Smith

Regards,
Brett.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

If it pivots about the chassis rail, then the drive gear could be withdrawn from the Low Ratio position and re-inserted in the High ratio position.

That would be one solution Tony, another one would be to make the post itself removable, and have two separate locating positions on the chassis rail, eg. short piece of box section for it to slide into, with a simple locking pin.

Either way though it would explain the redesign from the early version where the post appears to be fixed vertically on the bumper bar, or at best, hinged at the base with a locking pin hole in the brace plate for high ratio position. Perhaps they found this arrangement was not robust enough in high ratio, which being only 4:1 would require considerable force on the crank handle. And of course if it was indeed fixed vertically, then they would quickly discover in trials that 16:1 was impractical in most situations, and certainly impractical for winding in loose cable.

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Either way I think you're onto something Tony because if you look at the 9th Div jeep winch you'll notice the drive gear is at least half way out, which indicates they haven't pushed it back in far enough for the Dawn locking pin to engage:

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This is something I do myself routinely on my Dawn No. 5 winch, purely through laziness when changing ratios. It's not necessary to engage the locking pin, but of course when I go for a spin around the backyard the handle sometimes falls out, and next time I need to use the winch I have to search for it in the long grass! In the case of the jeep that can't happen, and since you'd be changing ratios repeatedly you wouldn't bother with the Dawn locking pin each time, it would just be an unnecessary nuisance.

Whatever the case in practice though, the fact that the drive gear is so far out in this photo tells us the entire shaft is removable, which can only be for the purpose of changing ratios. That would make this winch infinitely more practical.

I suspect the shaft attachment only looks complex because they've retained the Dawn handle mounting parts, it's possibly just a piece of box section or channel enclosing them and welded to the long shaft. However I'm not sure why they'd retain those parts, rather than simply join the two shafts with a welded sleeve. Perhaps they wanted to maintain the integrity of the Dawn handle mount for interchangeability purposes, esp. for the first batch which must be considered a trial mod only. Given that these winches were used elsewhere in standard form it would make sense not to ruin them for those applications, at least not until the jeep mod was fully proven in the field. Even then it would still make sense not to ruin them if possible.

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[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Tony Smith

The attachment of the cranking shaft to the drive gear seems too over-complex for a fixed alignment.

What about a piece of box section or channel, which fits over Dawn part A, or similar but thicker fabricated part A, and slotted for upward removal of the post and shaft assembly, which can be repositioned further back on the chassis, after moving the drive gear to the high ratio position. In other words a two-piece assembly, with the shaft detachable from the drive gear. Why else would you have a pin and slot arrangement, which is clearly the case here?

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On this jeep version they've clearly dispensed with Dawn part B so it's likely they dispensed with part Dawn part A too, and used a much thicker square block, say 1" thick, drilled for the shaft and held in place by the Dawn nut, and pinned on the sides for the slotted box section piece.

That would work nicely I reckon, although it does involve two separate operations to change ratios. On the other hand it may be a lot easier than with a floppy joint. Either way you have to handle the gear end to poke the shaft in the hole so there's probably not much difference.

Of course the ideal set up would be a uni-joint of some kind, with a post that swings back on a pivot so you don't have to remove it to change ratios. However I don't believe that's what were seeing in these jeep photos.

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi Mate,

It's a hand operated thing (must've been slow!!!) but I think the one in the photo is missing past of the handle as we see it in the photo. The details I have show the handle is meant to be 'locked' in to that bracket next to the ARN on the mudguard when not in use.

It'd be great to find someone with a jeep still on it- got close last year ahem I saw a jeep on display, but it was a much smaller Dawn winch fitted, not the official mod. My guess though is that like most things the aussie army did to jeeps, restorers have undone them thinking that it was cocky mod or that their jeep must be a US army one and ignoring its true history!

Dawn is still in business, I must contact them and see what they know!

Thanks Tony,
Ian.