Photos needed. Shed full of S**t Auction

[Mike Cecil]

Ian,

I'm sorry to say you have all the info I have on that Contract Demand (CD) in this thread, as you'll see when Volume 1 of Lloyd White's new book on the MB comes out later this year (I wrote the Australian chapter). There wasn't enough solid info to warrant much more than a paragraph or two on the Dawn winch mod, plus some liberal quoting from the MGO Memorandum, and a single image (the 9th Div jeep coming ashore).

I have to wonder if the CD was the only one (especially given the difficulty with the supply of the specified cable) and therefore the total number of which kits provided to Army, given images (and survivors) are so rare. Being supplied as a field mod kit, they could have been fitted to any jeep at field workshop level, (or simply left on the shelf), hence I'm not at all surprised that there are no annotations in the registration ledgers.

Mike C

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi Mike,

Thanks very much for that. I will keep digging then into it (both the Contract Demand side and any other avenue) and see what i can find on the kit. I agree with you though, its unlikely many of those 230 produced you quoted were fitted and thus the low survival rate and also unlikely there was another CD for the winch kit (also hence why i was so keen to see the pics from the one Howards auction sold!).

Out of curiosity, if you dont mind, where did you find info on the problem with the cable size?

Cheers,
Ian.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

I have to wonder if the CD was the only one (especially given the difficulty with the supply of the specified cable).

There's certainly a shortage of cable on this 9th Div jeep winch, looks like the equivalent of one full layer on the drum, which works out to a little over 20' length. However it's definitely 3/8" cable, as opposed to 7/16" on Tony's old winch and also my Dawn No.5 winch.

dawn-1 - Copy (2).jpg

jeep0041 - Copy.jpg

From this we might infer limited stock of 3/8" cable which was rationed, and no suitable alternative available. Why else would you shorten the cable so drastically from the 120' spec, which is comparable to 125' CMP spec? You could still use the winch effectively by extending the cable with rope as req'd and winding in 20' at a time. You don't need much rope strength to pull a jeep slowly through mud, and with this winch I mean EXCRUCIATINGLY slowly! Even up a 45 degree incline you only need 1/2 ton force which would only require the rope to be doubled up.

Yes it's highly speculative but there must be a reason for shortening the cable so drastically, and there must also be a reason why so few jeeps had what strikes me as an extraordinarily useful piece of kit, notwithstanding slow operation. Nowadays we have electric front mount winches and no one goes off-road without one, and judging by all the wartime pics of jeeps being towed or pushed through bogs there was plainly a need for this mod. Indeed the very existence of this mod tells us that. It could even be operated under water to ford deep creeks and rivers, rather than waiting hours for a truck to come along. I know I'd be a lot happier going bush with one of these on the front, esp. in jungle terrain.

Therefore I suspect you're right Mike, all the evidence points to this mod being scotched after the first order due to lack of cable, as there was still a whole year of war to go. I'd be interested to see a blow up of the 9th Div jeep coming ashore, it too looks short on cable to me, and may even have non-spec cable, ie. much thicker.

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi Tony,

Sounds logical to me!

Heres a bigger version and you seem to be right (eagle eyed!), not much cable.



Cheers,
Ian.

[Richard Farrant]

Tony and Ian,
Another reason for not having many layers of rope on the drum is due to "effort required". Maybe experience told them of the usual length of pull required, the more unused rope on the drum, the more effort required to wind the handle.
Each layer will increase the load on the operator, the only other option is to use some thing like a Trewhella rope grab, to clamp on the rope down its length in order to start on bottom layer.

Of course if shortage of steel wire rope then it could be the real reason.

I spent a good deal of time repair and testing all kinds of winches for the army from hand operated winches, recovery vehicles through to 30 ton winches on Caterpillars. Each layer on the drum on a vehicle winch, reduces its pulling power before the cut out trips in.

regards, Richard

[Tony Wheeler]

Sound logic Richard but when you do the math you find this winch is geared ridiculously low for recovery work. It's permanently in low ratio, which is designed for lifting 2 tons vertically over a few feet, not pulling a one ton vehicle horizontally over 120 feet! It can be calculated that would require 1400 turns of the handle, advancing the jeep only 1" per turn. The only way this winch would be remotely practical is with the handle set at minimal length, eg. 6" or less, and wound rapidly with one hand, in the manner of cranking a motor. That's no problem as the handle force required is less than 20lbs, so you could keep up a steady rate of 100 rpm or more, which would get the job done in a few minutes. However I believe it would be much better with a higher ratio and the handle set longer, so you could shorten it over the easy stretches and go much faster. That said though it's a helluva lot better than no winch at all!

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

Tony and Ian,
Another reason for not having many layers of rope on the drum is due to "effort required". Maybe experience told them of the usual length of pull required, the more unused rope on the drum, the more effort required to wind the handle.
Each layer will increase the load on the operator, the only other option is to use some thing like a Trewhella rope grab, to clamp on the rope down its length in order to start on bottom layer.

Of course if shortage of steel wire rope then it could be the real reason.

I spent a good deal of time repair and testing all kinds of winches for the army from hand operated winches, recovery vehicles through to 30 ton winches on Caterpillars. Each layer on the drum on a vehicle winch, reduces its pulling power before the cut out trips in.

regards, Richard

Sound logic Richard but when you do the math you find this winch is geared ridiculously low for recovery work. It's permanently in low ratio, which is designed for lifting 2 tons vertically over a few feet, not pulling a one ton vehicle horizontally over 120 feet! It can be calculated that would require 1400 turns of the handle, advancing the jeep only 1" per turn. The only way this winch would be remotely practical is with the handle set at minimal length, eg. 6" or less, and wound rapidly with one hand, in the manner of cranking a motor. That's no problem as the force required is less than 20lbs, so you could keep up a steady rate of 100 rpm or more, which would get the job done in a few minutes. However I believe it would be much better with a higher ratio and the handle set longer, so you could shorten it over the easy stretches and go much faster. That said though it's a helluva lot better than no winch at all!

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

Sound logic Richard but when you do the math you find this winch is geared ridiculously low for recovery work. It's permanently in low ratio, which is designed for lifting 2 tons vertically over a few feet, not pulling a one ton vehicle horizontally over 120 feet! It can be calculated that would require 1400 turns of the handle, advancing the jeep only 1" per turn. The only way this winch would be remotely practical is with the handle set at minimal length, eg. 6" or less, and wound rapidly with one hand, in the manner of cranking a motor. That's no problem as the force required is less than 20lbs, so you could keep up a steady rate of 100 rpm or more, which would get the job done in a few minutes. However I believe it would be much better with a higher ratio and the handle set longer, so you could shorten it over the easy stretches and go much faster. That said though it's a helluva lot better than no winch at all!

Hi Tony,
If it were a longer rope on there, and thus more layers, as each layer built up it would require less turns on the handle as effective drum diameter is increasing. It gave you the incentive not to get in a situation to use the winch!

cheers Richard