High River- Police seizure of firearms

[Marc Montgomery]

For those who might not know, Alberta suffered its worse flooding in history.. even the major city of Calgary was flooded out..
the town of High River was one of the areas that suffered a lot of flooding and the whole town was evacuated and sealed off by police.

What happened next though- is that police- violently broke into houses-hundred and hundreds... under the excuse they were looking for people needing rescuing..and later to find "unsecured" firearms as a safety measure. Though as it now turns out, they smashed down doors in sections where there was no flooding.

They also- apparently- (Im not clear on the timeline but allegations are---) they targetted houses using a firearm registry supposedly ordered destroyed by federal order

They caused millions of dollars in damage..which the Cdn taxpayer is now paying back through the RCMP making reparation payments

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews...19-082903.html

[cletrac (RIP)]

If they get flooding again this spring how many people will leave their houses so the Mounties can go looting again? I read where the only two houses in one area that weren't broken into were owned by the local Mounties. Fancy that!
The firearms were damaged as they were thrown around roughly and all the ammunition was destroyed.

[charlie fitton]

sure doesn't fill you with confidence, does it? and

"RCMP ... have completed the physical search of all homes in High River ..." The message explains members searched 3,337 "houses and buildings," conducted 674 "forced entries" and "located" 303 people."

The article implies that the 303 people were "located" while they were conducting the forced entries....highly doubtful.

[motto]

An abysmal betrayal of public trust by an organisation held in high regard throughout the world. They have done the reputation of the RCMP a grave disservice and maybe irreparable damage. There must be many former members turning in their graves.
Sadly, it also goes to show how readily the average enforcer can be used as a goon when conditions allow and the leadership directs.
Hopefully the political will exists to punish those responsible so as nothing like it happens again but I doubt it.

David

[Jon Skagfeld]

This is also a terible indictment about Canadian journalistic reporting.

The main-stream media (MSM) are studiosly avoiding commenting on this event. The only TV news channel which is following the High River disgrace is Sun News.

The RCMP have disgraced themselves more and more ever since the barn burnings in Quebec. Some officials are howling for its disbandment.

[cletrac (RIP)]

Her's a youtube link

[Wayne Henderson]

Didn't you Canadians beat the Nazis in WW2.
Looks like you missed a few.

[motto]

History shows us that there are always people lurking in the wings who want the exact same things the Nazis wanted.
As the saying goes 'The price of freedom is eternal vigilance'.
We have some worrying, far reaching and draconian anti biker legislation enacted here that gives the state immense powers over individuals without right of appeal. For our own good of course.
The dogs are barking.

David

[Andrew]

well said Wayne

Originally Posted by Wayne Henderson

Didn't you Canadians beat the Nazis in WW2.
Looks like you missed a few.

[Marc Montgomery]

While I do not condone such things as drinking and driving the idea of roadside car seizure for even tiny amounts of alcohol or this ridiculous "stunting" laws...also strikes me as being against civil rights...police as instant judge and jury... and again seizure of private property..

what's very much even more scary- are the number of people who clamour for crushing of vehicles in such cases..destruction of property..
I am amazed at people who would so willingly walk blindly into a 1984- big brother state.
(btw- did you know your car has a black box that police can use to convict you, and insurance companies can use to deny your claims?)

[Andrew]

Im not sure at what year this started as standard practice but the computers now have that data of speed,braking etc stored in them. And yes the police do use it if it is avail as legal evidence. I was just talking to my wife about this today. That car, and that computer is the owners legal property. Like anything, you would assume police or insurance company's would need a warrant to seize it, and if not, anything on it would be inadmissible in a court of law, but i have yet to hear of anything like that in canada

Originally Posted by Marc Montgomery

(btw- did you know your car has a black box that police can use to convict you, and insurance companies can use to deny your claims?)

[Marc Montgomery]

From a 2013 news story
"While there are at least 12 US states that have laws regarding the ownership and use of EDR information, Canada does not have EDR specific legislation and this data is regularly used in the courts."

I cannot immediately recall insurance companies using the data to deny claims, but if its used in court then its available, and Im quite sure they will, and have, deniec claims

Car insurance companies are now using something very similar..in Canada Desjardins is calling it "Ajusto" claiming it will reduce your bills if the info shows you are a "safe" driver".. ( a somewhat relative judgement determined by the insurance company)

now optional, what happens when all insurance companies have this?
I dont see this as lowering your costs, but rather as an excuse to charge much more if you do not agree to having this installed to monitor and report on your driving.
(acceleration, speed, braking force etc) if you accelerate hard, they may feel you are a risk... if you brake hard..same deal.. speeding? well of course..risky all= more $ regardless of whether you've ever been in an accident.

BTW in Quebec if you have several accidents that were not your fault (3 i think) you re considered to have bad luck and so are a risk..= higher rates.

[Dianaa]

Originally Posted by Marc Montgomery

While I do not condone such things as drinking and driving
.... I am amazed at people who would so willingly walk blindly into a 1984- big brother state.
(btw- did you know your car has a black box that police can use to convict you, and insurance companies can use to deny your claims?)

Not in a Blitz though!

[Marc Montgomery]

No, not a CMP though. you're correct there....in fact not much electronic at all on a CMP. Imagine a vehicle you can tune without a computer...those were the days.

BTW massive floods in England, massive fires in OZ...no police smashing in doors and taking property in either place?

[Dianaa]

Originally Posted by Marc Montgomery

No, not a CMP though. you're correct there....in fact not much electronic at all on a CMP. Imagine a vehicle you can tune without a computer...those were the days.

BTW massive floods in England, massive fires in OZ...no police smashing in doors and taking property in either place?

But they are smashing into the bikie fortresses! (and taking their guns), but that's probably not a bad thing even if the suspension of civil liberties and denial of freedom of association is an issue.

[maple_leaf_eh]

One of the most unappreciated differences between Canada and the US is the so-called Miranda Rights given to persons detained by American cops. They have to be read their rights. In Canada the cops read the person a caution which allows just one phone call and offers very little individual protection.

There is case law that allows the cops to interrogate continuously without a lawyer present. Statements and confessions are accepted by the courts which have an odourous taint of intimidation and coertion. People go to jail for years for their flippant remarks, and are freed only after strenuous work by outsiders to have their cases reviewed. Some wrongful conviction settlements have been tens of millions of dollars.

The average biker is different than Joe-Blow Sixpack. They have lawyers on retainer, so when the cops break down the doors of a clubhouse or catch some Harley Davidson motorcycle with loud pipes, the guys get first class legal advice. Their probably even have "conduct after capture" training designed to counter police investigation techniques.

During the Alberta floods the Canadian Forces was 'called out' to assist the civil authoritites. The cops used some of their rubber assault boats to get to some isolated houses, and borrowed heavy picket fence post thumpers to break the doors. Apparently, when the army found out what their guys and kit were being used for, cooperation was abruptly withdrawn.

WRT Rob's RCMP acquaintance running to tell his story, that sounds like an internal story line that satisfies someone's need for rationalizing their actions. The thin blue line can close ranks tightly when it is challenged.

[Marc Montgomery]

Thanks for the link Rob.. It is truly frightening that people like Ms Cukier ( a paid lobbyist) will put their own personal agenda ahead of the foundations of our society in terms of our basic civil rights.

As to the RCMP...even if (and that is an enormous if) one accepts their thin excuse of breaking in to secure loose firearms, how can they explain the uneccessary damage iof destroying doors and frames worth anywhere from several hundred to several thousand dollars each, instead of simply breaking a small window beside when that option was avialable?

People there have said that in addition to tracking mud all over houses, and rooting through drawers, closets, etc they say mounties smashed doors on houses not part of the flood area, smashed a door on a house (not in a flood area) and which was getting extensive interior reno even though told by a friend as they arrived at the house , there was no one, and nothing inside..
Aslo they apparently did not break into houses owned by mounties. (at least two)

meanwhile, the latest this week.
http://o.canada.com/news/national/re...erta-flooding/

[Marc Montgomery]

Rob, can you possibly believe that claim? Victims of the flood? The town had been fully evacuated. If anyone had been left behind (virtually impossible) wouldnt they be at the door or window yelling for help? Maybe use a cell phone to call for help? Sorry, that claim is patently unbelievable. totally, i dont believe that for a nanosecond

Meanwhile, the swiss thing came about becuase of a dispute between two former partners..now both operating competing stores and as a very stupid tactic by one to get the other in trouble by claiming he was selling illegal firearms.. and look at the result...

I am not aware of the prescribed antiques issue.. could you clarify?

[cletrac (RIP)]

I guess when you start doing the goose step it's easy to overstep the bounds of your authority. It seems to go to your head!!
How are you protecting property by kicking down locked doors and leaving them swinging in the wind? If there was anyone inside a simple knock on the door would have gotten a reply.
This was a forced evacuation and the mounties and military were the only ones left in town. Maybe the military should have had authorization to protect the property from the RCMP.
Protecting property was a ruse and they didn't find a soul in the "protected" homes so what was the real reason for it? Personally I'll go with the firearms seizures.

[cletrac (RIP)]

Rob, I think you'll find that the phrase "doing the goose step" is a colloquialism referring to anybody that's overstepping their authority. Sure the Germans gave it notoriety but Iraq and North Korea do their part to keep it going.

[rob love]

Sorry to ruin the continuity of this thread, but I have removed my posts. Some of this thread is a little too over the top for my liking, so I think I'll just step back.

[motto]

I've been away for a couple of days and so missed some of what is referred to here.
Freedom, particularly when applied to private firearms ownership is a very emotive issue and discussion therefore always apt to boil over.
The fact that some of the thread went 'a little too over the top' is all the more reason for you to stay in there Rob. Your posts were well balanced and reasoned and added some worthy input to the debate.
I for one miss your contribution and am sorry that you left the field.

David

[Marc Montgomery]

Sorry you decided to withdraw, and that you removed your posts with the relevant info. I hope you will change your mind.

I agree with Jon, Im surprised that mainstream media seems to have avoided this story and I really cant understand why

[Harry Moon]

Sun News has been covering it. About the only news channel i take the time anymore to watch. Lots of FOI requests and a pretty steady campaign for a public inquiry.

[chris vickery]

If firearms were owned legally and stored in a lawfull and corect manner, why would they be so concerned about safety?
Just a prime example of how registries can be used against Citizens, I mean Subjects.
I truly believe that the RCMP has, and has always had an agenda towards firearms ownership in Canada.
Read the book on Sam Steele, its in there going all the way back to early settlement in Canada's West. The NWMP at the time were very concerned with the United States mentality towards gun ownership and came up with a mandate to ensure Canada did not become plagued with the gun culture of the American West. Given the fact that this police force is our Federal police, it makes me feel really uneasy about how and why they do things the way they do. It seems a continual list of breaches of Civil rights, internal scandals and execution by Cop. They can't even keep things under control within their organization. Sexual misconduct charges swept under the carpet, tazering to death inoccent civilians, theft, drug use, illegal search and seizures and so on.
And add, most recently reclassifications of legally owned firearms with the stroke of a pen, just because they can.
A group turly out of control and abusing power over Canadians. Maybe its time to re-evaluate and perhaps dis-band. Heck the Canadian Airborne Regiment was dis-banded over a whole lot less....

[chris vickery]

The general consensus in the Canadian firearms community now is that recent decisions regarding certain types of firearms being reclassified is merely a test of the firearms community; the ideology being that the Feds want to test the resolve of the firearms community in a limited area, thusly probing us to see what and how the reaction will be. If the community rolls over and accepts things like seizures, compensation or not, then it lays the groundwork to move on to other types of firearms and pick them off one by one. The main trouble has always been a divided firearms community, each group not really understanding the other, nor representing or standing up for each other.
A blackpowder enthusiast is light years away from the tactical shooting guru yet they are one in the same. A gun is a gun, regardless. Some are just more scary looking than others. It is easy for the media to manipulate the facts to pull the wool over the eyes of the general public. Sooner or later Grampa, if it were up to those in power, your Cooey 22 will be gone too.
And respectfully Guy, I can agree that there are probably many Officers doing a job that they find distastefull, it goes with the territory.
I still contend though that someone or a group from within is pushing for the current tactics being used against law abiding citizens.
Firearms amnesties are for criminals, not for law abiding, licensed taxpayers living in a supposedly free country.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I've been watching and remaining silent on this topic but there are a few items in your comments that warrant rebuttal. First, you avoid the contradiction that those who use illegal firearms to do criminal acts often get less severe penalties than 'paper' firearms offenses based on improper storage or classification. Why is that? Second, that officers getting no 'satisfaction' out of kicking doors down is irrelevant. The fact is they did and it becomes more a question of why. I couldn't care less how they felt when doing it.

Originally Posted by guyvapeur

There is a similar thread on another forum I read that talks about High River, Alberta. Most subscribers are in the United States and far removed from Canadian laws and practises. I choose not to interfere with their choice of topics or their views relating to their home turf.
I have just come upon this thread and it makes me sick. Rob Love pulled out but I will step in if only for this one line.
Never in my 30 year career with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police did I once even get a whiff of directive that would say I should be targeting gun owners.
Then again 17 years in Northern Alberta did not afford me much of a chance to meet any real gun owner....Bull.............I met them all..... and yes there were refusals for ownership when the local decided a 44 magnum was what was need for the gun club he had not yet joined.
There is talks about rights..... Miranda and so on. Bull............I have seen more than enough cases thrown out of court because police had not jumped through every loop and fence the courts, the community and their own administration had put in their way. A list of lawyers was available at every detachment so that we could advise a suspect as to whom could be called. There is no such thing in my experience as to the one phone call. In simple terms, the subject must be afforded the right to retain counsel.....I can think of one case where the court ruled the police had driven by a phone booth thus denying the accused the right to make a phone call ASAP....Case dismissed.
I don't have a full account of what happened at High River but I can say without a doubt the Officer kicking in doors was not getting any satisfaction out of this task.
I will gladly await the findings of any inquiry and see what Sun News has to report when it is all over.
Now I await the tide of rebuttal.

[chris vickery]

"The fact is they did and it becomes more a question of why. I couldn't care less how they felt when doing it."
My sentiments exactly Bruce as per my quote below;
"I still contend though that someone or a group from within is pushing for the current tactics being used against law abiding citizens."
How often in past history have were all heard, "we were only following orders?"
Wake up Canada and really see what is going on here.

[Harry Moon]

The evidence is being assembled and a class action suit is in the works. Check out the National firearms association website or FaceBook.

[guyvapeur]

Note to File:
Await commencement of lawsuit and final results.