help with engine swap to 8BA engine

[Grant Bowker]

According to the parts books (not confirmed by actual observation) each of FGT and F15A had several different frame assemblies with corresponding frame rails. The differences in these seem to have been in mounting holes for different components. Ford or Delco shock absorbers, different steering gears, different winch fairleads/rollers, early and late cab.
Although the changes in F15A and FGT frames seem to parallel each other (except winches are FGT only in the 101.25" WB frames) there are separate part numbers for the FGT and F15A frame assemblies and rails. The difference in the numbers is the prefix designating the vehicle model C011WQF for F15A and C011QF for FGT.
In general, the prefix seems to reflect the first vehicle to use a given part and any other vehicles that use the same part reference the part using the original prefix. For example there are many parts in both the F15A and FGT lists that are prefixed C01QF (either F30 or F60S).
Based on the above (again - not confirmed by actual observation) my opinion is that there is some difference between the frame rails used on F15As and FGTs.
Now for speculation - you may be able to use FGT rails on a F15A without much change (possibly adjustments for mounting a full cab as opposed to FGT body) and F15A rails on a FGT (probably with opposite adjustments for body/cab and added holes needed for FGT use to mount the winch and other equipment).
It might be effective to find/borrow one of each frame, stack them on top of each other, photograph this and hand it to several of your knowledgable friends and ask them to play spot-the-differences. Even better to do this with both side views, top, bottom, front and back as well.

[cletrac (RIP)]

I think the gun tractors have extra gussets from frame rail to crossmember so there'd be extra holes drilled. No big deal.

[Jason Linders]

Thanks for that guys, just another question would F15 rail be the same as F15A rail just the rails i can swap every cross member if nee be thats no big deal but i think my rails are just way to passed fixing, i have a mate that thinks he can fix them but how far do you go before its just not worth it and
the back from the rear spring hanger is just too smashed

[Jason Linders]

Here is some pics of the rear and the cracks in the rails

[Jason Linders]

So my mate said we would have to remove everything that is bolted to the rails and realign the rails weld the cracks the reinforce the rails on the inside
properly and remove all rubbish welds and plates and start again, i think it
can be done but i think rear i end is a little passed it but if i cut the mess of the leave the 200mil of the rear is that a big problem and then we would have to hot rivet it all back togeather, this is what im looking at, at a worse case no chassis avalable.
Just talking here if i can find a chassis nothing ubove matters its only if i cannot
What does everyone else think.

[Grant Bowker]

The frame rails fo rthe F15 have different part numbers from both the F15A and FGT. Once again I can't tell you what the diffeence is, only that the frame rails for the F15 were unique to the F15.
Your mate is a braver man than I am to take on those cracks. For my welding skill (or lack thereof), those cracks are closer to other things (cross members, spring hangers etc.) attached to the frame than I know how to reinforce. I've also seen quite a few frames that ended up cracking right beside the repair weld. I don't know if that was a result of poor preparation, poor technique, weld heat and metalurgy making the area prone to crack again or something else. The Ford CMP maintenance manual does give advice on frame repair.
If you add reinforcement inside the frame, you will need to allow for the thickness at each crossmember to avoid having the frame wider in some areas than others. you might also run into issues with parts that mount to the frame spannig its width (due to the new width of the frame being slightly greater due to you reinforcement being sandwiched between crossmembers and frame rails) such as springs/axles, cab, bumperreak hitch spring (although it is a loose enough fit that i don't think it would be a problem) rear body (not likely to be a problem for GS bodies given the mounting system). Maybe I worry too much???

[Jason Linders]

Thanks for that Grant any info is better that nothing, just seeing what everyone else has to say becouse its very hard to find a chassis i have had no luck for the last 12 months and the only way i could see a way around it was to repair whats their, my mate is a welder and blacksmith by trade
and without a chassis the blitz is dead in the water.
Does anyone think its a bad idea to try and repair the chassis

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Grant Bowker

In general, the prefix seems to reflect the first vehicle to use a given part......It might be effective to find/borrow one of each frame, stack them on top of each other, photograph this and hand it to several of your knowledgable friends and ask them to play spot-the-differences.

No need Grant, I have 3 FGT chassis and 4 F15A chassis in my backyard, and I've spent innumerable hours poring over them looking for differences! All I can find on the siderails is an extra set of holes for the fuel tank brackets, which on forensic examination prove to be drilled rather than stamped, with lines scored from the adjacent stamped hole set for accurate measurement. Evidently this was necessary to fit the running boards unique to Australian pattern FGTs.

All other differences relate to additional and/or relocated crossmembers and fishplates, which I've catalogued in post #39 here:

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...?t=1929&page=2


I wonder if the two different siderail prefixes arise from early parts before the alternative rivet holes were included to simplify production. Also of course there are differences between Cab 12 and Cab 13 side rails, and in the case of Cab 12 chassis I believe the FAT preceded the F15A in development.

[Jason Linders]

All good got the wheel base

F60S - 115IN WHEEL BASE
F60L - 158IN WHEEL BASE
FGT - 101.25IN

[Tony Wheeler]

Slight correction Jason, the F60S is 134 1/4". Not that it makes any difference in this case! Ultimately it will depend on what's available, and don't forget it's only the rear section you're concerned with, as you'll be reusing your FGT front section.

[Jason Linders]

F60L I would be removing 57in
F60S I would be removing 14in
will all holes for fuel tank brakets and every other hole be still staped into the
two chassis

[Jason Linders]

Now i am with you Tony all i really need is the rear

[ccooperaus]

Hello. Where in Qld are you. Have a F15A cab/chassis with 10.5x16 tyres. helper springs on rear axle. On Gold Coast. Charlie.

[Jason Linders]

Hi Charlie i live near toowoomba.
so not really that far

just sent PM

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Jason Linders

will all holes for fuel tank brakets and every other hole be still staped into the two chassis

Yes, they used a common stamping jig for ease of production. The result being that all F60S and F60L chassis have rivet holes for F15A and FGT fuel tank brackets and midsection crossmembers.

Edit: The above does not apply for Cab 12 chassis. Evidently production had not yet been standardized.

[Jason Linders]

Thanks for the info Tony makes things a little easier
to decide what to do

[Grant Bowker]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

No need Grant, I have 3 FGT chassis and 4 F15A chassis in my backyard, and I've spent innumerable hours poring over them looking for differences! All I can find on the siderails is an extra set of holes for the fuel tank brackets, which on forensic examination prove to be drilled rather than stamped, with lines scored from the adjacent stamped hole set for accurate measurement. Evidently this was necessary to fit the running boards unique to Australian pattern FGTs.

All other differences relate to additional and/or relocated crossmembers and fishplates, which I've catalogued in post #39 here:

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...?t=1929&page=2


I wonder if the two different siderail prefixes arise from early parts before the alternative rivet holes were included to simplify production. Also of course there are differences between Cab 12 and Cab 13 side rails, and in the case of Cab 12 chassis I believe the FAT preceded the F15A in development.

My comments were taken from the Canadian parts books F15A-01, FGT-01 and F15-01 so may not totally apply to the Australian FGT. If the Austalian frame is different to the Canadian FGT, did Ford ever do the frame rail stamping for the FGT or other CMPs locally or were the frames one of the parts that were imported for "local assembly"? If it was "local assembly, I've no idea whether Ford Australia would have been modifying the Canadian F15A frame (that would, of course, make for almost identical frames F15A to FGT) or the Canadian FGT frame.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Grant Bowker

If the Austalian frame is different to the Canadian FGT

No there's no difference in the frame, they were shipped fully assembled. The only difference between the Canadian and Australian FGT chassis is the axles and steering gear, as the 6" steering ends and 400 steering box weren't shipped here until '44, by which time FGT production had ceased. Same goes for pre '44 F60L and F60S chassis in Australia. Not sure why we didn't get the heavy duty components earlier.

The way it worked for local pattern bodies is they were designed around the Canadian chassis as received. Interestingly we've found what we believe is the first FGT chassis received in Australia, ordered specifically for that purpose. It's a very early FGT chassis with the Chev diffs and a roofless Cab 11. I believe the present owner is planning a repro FAT body eventually, thus fulfilling it's intended purpose somewhat belatedly!

[aj.lec]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

Interestingly we've found what we believe is the first FGT chassis received in Australia, ordered specifically for that purpose. It's a very early FGT chassis with the Chev diffs and a roofless Cab 11. I believe the present owner is planning a repro FAT body eventually, thus fulfilling it's intended purpose somewhat belatedly!

Even better if someone in Oz knows the whereabouts of an available original beetleback body for the purpose

[Jason Linders]

Hi does anyone have pics of the F60 chassis so i can see what to do about the cut and refit if i go down this path

[Jason Linders]

Hi and what is interchangable between the ford and the chev,
roof ,front window, seats are they all the same

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Jason Linders

Hi does anyone have pics of the F60 chassis so i can see what to do about the cut and refit if i go down this path

Here's the F60L midsection Jason but I'm not sure pics are much help, there's a multitude of options and you really need both chassis in front of you with tape measure in hand.

Any news on the Gold Coast F15A chassis?

TONY7974 - Copy.jpg

TONY7979 - Copy.jpg

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by aj.lec

Even better if someone in Oz knows the whereabouts of an available original beetleback body for the purpose

Yes that's going to be a tough ask in Australia, I believe only one Field Regiment brought them here, that being 2/11 Fd. Regt. They landed in Adelaide and shipped up to Qld where they were painted two-tone camo and given ARNs, but they appear to have left them behind when they went to Darwin. Who knows what happened to them after the war, probably went the way of most FGTs into sawmills.

I remember that chassis turning up on ebay, I was all set to bid for it until Keith told me it was near you. Which is rather fortunate because I certainly don't need any more FGT headache projects!


030111-01.jpg

image4.jpg

image5.jpg

P03113.002 Cairns, Qld. Probably 10th Australian Light Anti Aircraft Battery.jpg

[aj.lec]

Yes it will be a challenge . Probably end up with a repro unfortunately
A few projects ahead of that one at the moment
Interesting I haven't heard of any other Cab 11 FGT in any form in Australia . A few Cab 12 but rare on the ground too