Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Mrs Vampire]

Tony that Grant Transporter photo sure looks a lot like my Stuart Green/Light stone pattern .

It is curious that the Stuarts never appear in these photos. A Sqn was Stuart so my guess is B and C were too heavy and A was not.

And there is a reverse shot of the colour plates Darryl but the writing is too small to read. I guess a visit and a look is in order.

[Mrs Vampire]

Tony

I attempted to rub back a spot as you suggested. I did not manage to get as clean a circle of colours as you have but your method gives me a better indication than my previous efforts.

so I have in order of layers.

Yellow etch primer
Grey primer
Factory applied British Dark Green
Australian applied 1942 Khaki green (J)
Light Stone (N)
Modern Australian Khaki ( Me)

The News for me is :
1 the etch primer same as aircraft etch so far as it looks.

2 That the Stuarts were not US lusterless Olive Drab on arrival in Australia they were British Dark Olive green .. Because they were a part of a US lend lease contract to the British and prepared to a British spec.
This makes the photos of the unshipping of the Stuarts more understandable. It also explains why My Stuart arrived in Australia with a British "T" number painted on it and not a US "W" number. It also explains why the weird shipping numbers and symbols do not gel with any information about US Units or shipping . I need to look to British information not American.

[Tony Wheeler]

Nice work on the paint layers Gina, your photo displays the full paint history well, with Khaki Green identifiable as post September '42. Photos like this are an important part of vehicle provenance and widely underused by restorers IMO. It's possible to achieve more clarity but it requires many hours of fiddly rubbing work to isolate the colours completely. I find the only way this can be done is by using folded pointy corners of wet and dry to achieve the necessary precision, which is even more difficult with highly uneven paint coats like the Light Stone on your Stuart. I did a lot of that kind of delicate work on the front shell and it reminded me of archaeologists using tiny paintbrushes to reveal fossils!

IMGP1791 - Copy - Copy.jpg

IMGP1773a - Copy.jpg


Such photos also provide important evidence of general practice at the time, like the US Lend Lease factors you identify Gina. As such they can challenge our assumptions and go a long way to explaining wartime photographs as you say. I wonder if the Stuarts seen below were rushed into service in British green. It's possible they're seen after rainfall but even so they look way too dark for pre '42 Khaki Green.

0_2789000 State Library Vic.jpg


In due course I'll resume work on the FGT door to expose the required colours for matching. Unfortunately I got a bit carried away last time and removed too much paintwork, however there's plenty left to work with I believe. Ideally each coat needs to be exposed individually to provide maximum area for colour matching, and sealed with clear satin for colour rendition. Colours worth matching on this panel are pre '42 Khaki Green, Light Stone, and subject to confirmation post '42 Khaki Green and Light Earth. As such it will be a lengthy exercise but it's the only way to replicate these colours with full confidence. Hopefully it will be of use to others and can lead to standard formulations being established, which if confirmed by reference to WWII paint chips would be fully authoritative. This work has been done for modellers but does not translate usefully to volume supply. Ideally we can reach a point where WWII paint can simply be ordered, with paint matching a thing of the past. Hopefully my own efforts will be a step in that direction, to which end I'd welcome any suggestions/advice concerning suitable paint types and suppliers. I gather the general preference is for enamel rather than acrylic. Protec is one name that springs to mind and may be ideal for this project, given their association with current military paint supply.

TONY5120 - Copy - Copy.jpg

FGT8 ARN 132257.jpg

[Tony Wheeler]

These pics show 3rd Armd tanks in Khaki Green / Light Earth camo, including a Stuart it would seem. Note the difference in bright sunlight, very similar to 2/4th Grant in the bush. Official timeline for this scheme was 28 July to 14 November, with Khaki Green darkened in September.

[Tanks from New Guinea] nsw.gov.au 17420_a014_a014001330.jpg

17420_a014_a014001329.jpg

17420_a014_a014001327.jpg

P01022.043 NSW OR QLD, 1942. 2-4TH ARMD REGT GRANT M3 MEDIUM TANKS EN ROUTE TO MURGON QLD FOR .jpg

[Tony Wheeler]

Scout cars for Darryl's interest, which I believe are also in Khaki Green / Light Earth. Low contrast suggests pre '42 Khaki Green.

Is it my imagination or have they sprayed this with the spade in place?

nsw.gov.au 17420_a014_a014001313.jpg

nsw.gov.au 17420_a014_a014001311.jpg

[Big D]

Gina - a visit to the AWM is on my radar.

Tony - I think you are right about painting with the spade in place on that scout car. I have blown the photo up a bit and it certainly looks that way. So you reckon that is light earth on the scout car and not light stone? I must admit my uneducated eye can't tell the difference on these black and white photos. I had been leaning toward light stone for my paint pattern but light earth might be more appropriate.

I don't see the light earth in the paint sample plates listed. Am I right in thinking the light earth doesn't appear in those paint samples because it was added in January 1943? Is/was there then a set of paint samples which have all these new colours?

[Mrs Vampire]

Tony

The photo is from NSW railways collection, tanks passing through Homebush ( the station is near me and those buildings and the pedestrian bridge still exist) the train is heading south.

Photo was taken 7/2/1944. By that time My stuart and the rest of the 13th tanks were in Bandiana or heading there for storage.

Homebush is near chullora and the tank workshops associated with the manufacture of the sentinels.

The Grants have the late camo scheme my guess is they are on the way to bandiana sans guns for long term storage. There are no unit signs so it could be either the 2/4 or the 13th tanks.
There is a photo earlier in this thread of a grant at bandiana taken about the 5th 1944 with the same scheme as those in your picture

If it is the 2/4 they would be tanks being returned to store as that regiment was reequipped with Matildas and joined the 4th armoured brigade and went on to serve in the Islands.

Photo evidence has the 4 armored Brig still equipped with grants and matildas in 1945 when they were disbanded at southport. So perhaps those on the train are the 13th

The 13th was disbanded completely on 19 Oct 1943 and its vehicles returned to stores.

The photo taken nearly a year after the 2/4 made the epic trip from Wee Waa to Murgon and then as a part of the 3rd down to Bribie island has them in Light stone and Khaki as my tank was painted at the time. In the seven months between the exercise around Bribie island and the time this photo was taken it appears the tanks were repainted.

1 grants in storage 5/44 2 and 3 Grants and matilda of the 2/4 being loaded at Southport for Bandiana after the disbandment of the 2/4 3Jan 1946

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Big D

So you reckon that is light earth on the scout car and not light stone? I must admit my uneducated eye can't tell the difference on these black and white photos. I had been leaning toward light stone for my paint pattern but light earth might be more appropriate.

Actually I should have been less categoric on that point, I've amended the wording accordingly. As you say Darryl it's extremely difficult to pick Light Earth from Light Stone in B&W photos, especially in bright sunlight. Other factors include freshness of paint, distance from camera, and photography itself. For example, the same photo with different exposure and/or processing would lead me to conclude Light Stone.

nsw.gov.au 17420_a014_a014001313 - Copy.jpg nsw.gov.au 17420_a014_a014001313.jpg

There needs to be something of known colour in the photo for comparison, and in close proximity to the vehicle. White lettering provides a useful point of reference, but the truth is we can only be 100% certain when both schemes appear in the same photo, as seen below.

[Tanks from New Guinea] nsw.gov.au 17420_a014_a014001330.jpg AWM 065165 Kairi - Copy.jpeg

Other than photographic evidence we only have circumstantial evidence, principally the date of painting, which loosely followed the official instruction timeline:

Khaki Green / Light Stone 2/1/42 - 28/7/42
Khaki Green / Light Earth 28/7/42 - 14/11/42 (Khaki Green darkened circa September '42)
Dark Green / Light Grey 14/11/42 - 4/3/43
Three tone scheme 4/3/43 - 28/7/44 (yet to be sighted in photographs)

In practice however we need to consider various probabilities. Light Stone was a British colour intended for desert use and was applied in Australia to vehicles bound for the Middle East. As such its subsequent use as a disruptive colour for SWPA seems to have been largely a matter of expedience due to urgency. Presumably it was soon found too light for vegetated terrain and subsequent changes reflect efforts to darken the overall scheme whilst achieving the necessary contrast for disruptive effect. Logically therefore you'd expect Light Stone to be discontinued in production without delay, and certainly this appears to have been the case with CMP production, with vehicles emerging thereafter in Khaki Green only, including gun tractors it would seem. Evidence suggests Light Earth was introduced in production for armoured vehicles only, and where seen on softskins it has been applied in the field.

Based on these considerations the appropriate scheme for a White scout car would revolve around the delivery date. In other words, Light Stone would only be appropriate before July '42 delivery or thereabouts. It's also true that Light Stone was widely overpainted in the field, particularly on tactical vehicles, so it's entirely appropriate to use Light Earth when depicting early vehicles in the field after July '42. The FGT door seen above is an example of Light Stone being found unsuitable.

As you say Darryl the AWM colour set does not include Light Earth. This is one of the inconsistencies I referred to earlier concerning the range of approved colours, owing to constant revision. The caption mentions another set: A note attached to a different set of the same colours states: "First issued December 1941; Amended February 1942 ; Revised January 1943". It's possible this set may contain Light Earth, and a couple of sets exist in private hands as well. Hopefully the FGT door will provide a satisfactory example for matching. We certainly need this colour as it was widely used at the time, particularly on tactical vehicles, and once painted it remained there until camo became obsolete in July '44, and in operational areas until the end of the war.

I'll have a look through my saved images for scout car camo schemes.