Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Big D]

Gina - a visit to the AWM is on my radar.

Tony - I think you are right about painting with the spade in place on that scout car. I have blown the photo up a bit and it certainly looks that way. So you reckon that is light earth on the scout car and not light stone? I must admit my uneducated eye can't tell the difference on these black and white photos. I had been leaning toward light stone for my paint pattern but light earth might be more appropriate.

I don't see the light earth in the paint sample plates listed. Am I right in thinking the light earth doesn't appear in those paint samples because it was added in January 1943? Is/was there then a set of paint samples which have all these new colours?

[Mrs Vampire]

Tony

The photo is from NSW railways collection, tanks passing through Homebush ( the station is near me and those buildings and the pedestrian bridge still exist) the train is heading south.

Photo was taken 7/2/1944. By that time My stuart and the rest of the 13th tanks were in Bandiana or heading there for storage.

Homebush is near chullora and the tank workshops associated with the manufacture of the sentinels.

The Grants have the late camo scheme my guess is they are on the way to bandiana sans guns for long term storage. There are no unit signs so it could be either the 2/4 or the 13th tanks.
There is a photo earlier in this thread of a grant at bandiana taken about the 5th 1944 with the same scheme as those in your picture

If it is the 2/4 they would be tanks being returned to store as that regiment was reequipped with Matildas and joined the 4th armoured brigade and went on to serve in the Islands.

Photo evidence has the 4 armored Brig still equipped with grants and matildas in 1945 when they were disbanded at southport. So perhaps those on the train are the 13th

The 13th was disbanded completely on 19 Oct 1943 and its vehicles returned to stores.

The photo taken nearly a year after the 2/4 made the epic trip from Wee Waa to Murgon and then as a part of the 3rd down to Bribie island has them in Light stone and Khaki as my tank was painted at the time. In the seven months between the exercise around Bribie island and the time this photo was taken it appears the tanks were repainted.

1 grants in storage 5/44 2 and 3 Grants and matilda of the 2/4 being loaded at Southport for Bandiana after the disbandment of the 2/4 3Jan 1946

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

There are no unit signs so it could be either the 2/4 or the 13th tanks.

What about 2/8th tanks Gina? This unit served with 3rd Armd Div from Nov '42 through April '43, before relieving 2/6th in NG. Presumably they would have left their Grants behind...?

I believe these Grants seen at Homebush are in their original camo. Much the same pattern seen below in Jan '43. I wonder if 13 in the formation sign position is significant.

028519 SINGLETON, NSW, AUSTRALIA, 1943-01. GENERAL GRANT M3 MEDIUM TANK 3RD AUSTRALIAN ARMY TA.jpg

[Mrs Vampire]

Only the war diaries could resolve that I think.

the 2/8 were detached from the 3rd early in 1943 so I wonder at the division insignia still on the vehicles.

The AWM say this

"In April 1943, after over 18 months of training, the 2/8th was sent to New Guinea, where it became part of New Guinea Force, to relieve the 2/6th Armoured Regiment. This was the 2/8th’s only operational deployment. Using M3 Stuart light and M3 Grant medium tanks, the 2/8th’s main role was to defend Allied airfields against possible attack by Japanese paratroopers. The regiment was headquartered at Port Moresby, where it also had one of its tank squadrons, while the other squadron’s were at Milne Bay and Buna. The regiment also carried out joint training exercises to improve tank and infantry co-operation in jungle warfare. The regiment returned to Australia in February 1944."

If only one squadron was a Moresby then at least one squadron of Grants would have been deployed to Milne .....I would like to see a photo of that !! ( three squadrons A B and C one of Stuarts two of Grants.)

Wiki says: From 15 November 1942 the 2nd Armoured Brigade and the 2/8th Armoured Regiment formed part of the 3rd Armoured Division.[3] The regiment was separated from its brigade in April 1943 and deployed to New Guinea where it took over the 2/6th Armoured Regiment's tanks.[4] The regiment's role was confined to infantry co-operation training and static defence of major Australian bases. As a result it did not see any action. Squadrons were stationed at Port Moresby, Milne Bay and Buna.[2][3] Which Makes more sense and discounts those on the Train at Homebush being 2/8

There are no photos of them in PNG in Grants ands Stuarts I can find it is also inconsistent with the story I have been told that Grants and Stuarts were not deployed overseas post Buna. The Wiki article makes more sense than the AWM one.

So Tony if they were posted with Grants and Stuarts then Maybe but if not the insignia is consistent with the 13th tanks returning post disbandment.

[Mrs Vampire]

This from the Camouflage Committee july 1942.

Australian Archives C1903 whole series.

[Lynn Eades]

This is a very interesting and detailed thread. Here is a paint chart for British std paint colours. it is dated 2004. The last 8 have been added since 1931.
(it says so in the bottom r.h. corner)
I imagine that as the ebbs and flows of the war changed, so the availability of pigments (along with what ever else goes in paint)did as well, and this would have had significant influence on the consistency of colour and also the resultant dried paint.
I have a project coming up, and it appears that the base colour is #22 Light Bronze Green. A friend advises thatwe ( N.Z.) followed the Brits. in military vehicle painting, in 1941.
According to this chart, this colour has been around since 1931 and is to British standard BSc 318 C (what ever that means)
How consistent is this going to be? Will I be able to go to a paint supplier and trust that what he mixes will be correct. Will Dulux, or Altex, or Spartan paint be the same? (somehow I doubt it)
There is a lot to painting, (Iam definately a newby here) and almost every aspect affects the resultant finish.
How many times do we ever see two military vehicles side by side, the same colour? Is "never" a reasonable answer?
There are many other inconsistencies in how the job was done at the time I see as an example in the photos of the White Scout cars,
one carrying a jerry can holder on the side, and so it's diamond marking (excuse my ignorance) is back behind the door unlike the others, which are forward of the door.
G&T This is the most in depth thread I have seen on this topic. Keep up the good work.

[Mrs Vampire]

For what its worth this is the AWMs version of 1942/43 Khaki Green. Given it should be white inside I am unsure how much effort they put into getting this right.

Photo : Remnant of M3 Stuart recovered from Buna Campaign. Repainted ?? photographed 2014

[Big D]

I endorse what Lynn said. Tony and Gina - a great thread and very interesting.

You got me thinking about original paint on my scout car so I put the gallows mount project down for the afternoon (your plans are bang-on Gina) and got some wet and dry out and hit a couple of panels that I hoped still had original paint on them.

Like many of these things I am a novice, and the first attempt I think I went a bit hard and what I think was the original light earth seemed oh so thin as it disappeared pretty quickly.

The second shot is my second attempt which I am still working on slowly. I am using 400 grade wet and dry but maybe I need to go even finer?

Bear in mind this was in the garage and I had to use the flash otherwise the pictures came out too dark.

Does what I have unearthed give any clues? I think I see the remnants of pre-1942 khaki green in the first picture and it is slowly coming out in the second attempt.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Big D

So you reckon that is light earth on the scout car and not light stone? I must admit my uneducated eye can't tell the difference on these black and white photos. I had been leaning toward light stone for my paint pattern but light earth might be more appropriate.

Actually I should have been less categoric on that point, I've amended the wording accordingly. As you say Darryl it's extremely difficult to pick Light Earth from Light Stone in B&W photos, especially in bright sunlight. Other factors include freshness of paint, distance from camera, and photography itself. For example, the same photo with different exposure and/or processing would lead me to conclude Light Stone.

nsw.gov.au 17420_a014_a014001313 - Copy.jpg nsw.gov.au 17420_a014_a014001313.jpg

There needs to be something of known colour in the photo for comparison, and in close proximity to the vehicle. White lettering provides a useful point of reference, but the truth is we can only be 100% certain when both schemes appear in the same photo, as seen below.

[Tanks from New Guinea] nsw.gov.au 17420_a014_a014001330.jpg AWM 065165 Kairi - Copy.jpeg

Other than photographic evidence we only have circumstantial evidence, principally the date of painting, which loosely followed the official instruction timeline:

Khaki Green / Light Stone 2/1/42 - 28/7/42
Khaki Green / Light Earth 28/7/42 - 14/11/42 (Khaki Green darkened circa September '42)
Dark Green / Light Grey 14/11/42 - 4/3/43
Three tone scheme 4/3/43 - 28/7/44 (yet to be sighted in photographs)

In practice however we need to consider various probabilities. Light Stone was a British colour intended for desert use and was applied in Australia to vehicles bound for the Middle East. As such its subsequent use as a disruptive colour for SWPA seems to have been largely a matter of expedience due to urgency. Presumably it was soon found too light for vegetated terrain and subsequent changes reflect efforts to darken the overall scheme whilst achieving the necessary contrast for disruptive effect. Logically therefore you'd expect Light Stone to be discontinued in production without delay, and certainly this appears to have been the case with CMP production, with vehicles emerging thereafter in Khaki Green only, including gun tractors it would seem. Evidence suggests Light Earth was introduced in production for armoured vehicles only, and where seen on softskins it has been applied in the field.

Based on these considerations the appropriate scheme for a White scout car would revolve around the delivery date. In other words, Light Stone would only be appropriate before July '42 delivery or thereabouts. It's also true that Light Stone was widely overpainted in the field, particularly on tactical vehicles, so it's entirely appropriate to use Light Earth when depicting early vehicles in the field after July '42. The FGT door seen above is an example of Light Stone being found unsuitable.

As you say Darryl the AWM colour set does not include Light Earth. This is one of the inconsistencies I referred to earlier concerning the range of approved colours, owing to constant revision. The caption mentions another set: A note attached to a different set of the same colours states: "First issued December 1941; Amended February 1942 ; Revised January 1943". It's possible this set may contain Light Earth, and a couple of sets exist in private hands as well. Hopefully the FGT door will provide a satisfactory example for matching. We certainly need this colour as it was widely used at the time, particularly on tactical vehicles, and once painted it remained there until camo became obsolete in July '44, and in operational areas until the end of the war.

I'll have a look through my saved images for scout car camo schemes.

[Tony Wheeler]

These pics show scout cars en route north from Alice Springs, and once again I believe we're seeing Light Earth disruptive freshly painted. I notice the ARN range is the same as the one seen on rail car in NSW.

White scout car convoy Alice Springs.jpg White scout car Alice Springs.jpg White scout car convoy main north south road 121 Australian General Transport Company.jpg

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

Evidence suggests Light Earth was introduced in production for armoured vehicles only, and where seen on softskins it has been applied in the field.

I should qualify that statement in respect of softskin tactical vehicles, for which evidence of Light Earth in production most definitely exists.

1363reff60sbofors.jpg

[Big D]

Hi Tony,

I thought you might say that…..thanks for your expert analysis.

The more I have looked at it, the more I see bare metal in the right light around that reddish colour, and I think you are right. It is rust on the surface.

I cleaned back the paint on another part of the body (the area in front of the windshield) which should be completely original to this vehicle (that is, not an armoured panel that could have been added post-war) where the disruptive would have been on an AOP. Again, the same pattern of green and that primer, along with the red colour (rust) below as what I had found on the other areas.

It is interesting as I had located the white US star further back on the side panels, and always assumed they were original. However, I sanded through the white paint on the star today and it revealed the same pattern of paint that I had seen in the other areas, albeit without the reddish rust colour. There were some areas of darker rust right underneath it though where I rubbed it back.

There was no sign of any original US paint under it, nor any primer and I think the stars and probably the numbers in white paint I’ve found on the hood were added in at some stage previously when the whole vehicle was stripped of its paint.

Gina – hope you didn’t think I was taking over your thread. I thought this might have helped to ‘paint’ the picture on the disruptive paint aspect but alas it looks like this scout car cannot contribute anymore unless I get some paint chips off like you say Tony!

[Mrs Vampire]

OH not at all Darryl

The more the merrier...its a learning exercise for me the more people add the more I learn