The MV Hobby, De-Mob

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Todays kids don't want grandpas hand-me-downs.
There was a time in recent history when Model T Fords and 1920s and 30s cars were quite rare and collectable. Check out Old Autos anytime to get a reality check...

Interestingly, my local Ford museum, housing the world's largest collection of Ford vehicles - no less than 214! - is auctioning 47 pre-war Fords and veteran and vintage vehicles to make the collection "younger". From the auctioneers site: "The Ford vehicles are being auctioned because the Ford Museum always wants to ensure that its range can be recognized by visitors. The decision was, therefore, taken to exchange the pre-war Fords for vintage vehicles that are not as old."

Hanno

[maple_leaf_eh]

I follow the hobby and agree that there are probably three motivators.

First is for buyers who can now afford toys, to find whatever they enjoyed in their youth. My Jeeps for instance, are models I drove in the reserves in my teens.

Second are machinery students, who enjoy (?) the challenge of keeping old iron running. The Hammond Barn crowd have WWII vehicles under restoration, and they work on something to learn how it was built and can be brought back to life. The crazier ones have heavy, stinky, expensive and awkward vehicles like 5-ton trucks, wreckers, tracked and big wheeled vehicles.

Third, and far less common IMHO, are collector/builder/investors. There are some of us who see money in everything, and work on projects to resell. (Do they ever get their money back?) Yes, there are investers who want an MB, an M4, a Universal Carrier, or a Ferret, but how many of them are walking around lopsided because of their fat wallets?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

From the auctioneers site: "The Ford vehicles are being auctioned because the Ford Museum always wants to ensure that its range can be recognized by visitors. The decision was, therefore, taken to exchange the pre-war Fords for vintage vehicles that are not as old."

Well that fits as it was Henry Ford who was quoted as saying "History is bunkum" !

[chris vickery]

Hanno, your reply with the indication of a museum making the collection "younger" and "recognizable" is exactly what I am alluding to;
It seems that most collectables, whatever they are, revolve around the generation that most appreciates and can afford them. Typically this is the age group which hovers between 40 and 60, those whos children are grown and gone, have stability and have the financial freedom to pursue the hobby.
In our market for example, it is not quite the same as collecting match book covers or coins. Heavy machinery which was made for young man's sport becomes more and more of a challenge even to the most able bodied among us.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi All

I have read a number of studies about the antique car hobby over the last few years and yes the average age of collectors is getting older. I'll try and find my notes on the studies and post the links.

The MV club I belong to is very concerned about this issue and has been for a number of years the core of the club are now all my age about 65. Very recently though we started to see an influx of younger late 20s and mid 30s some ten in the last year which we are seeing as being a really good thing.

Cheers Phil

[Lynn Eades]

Chris, Phil etc. The "baby boomers", that "bubble" in the population, the "pig in the python" The people born between 1946 and 1964 are the bulge in the post war population that determines most trends in our lives from real estate prices to old vehicle prices.
What you guys are saying is pretty much right.
When I was at high school with no $ (still the same) It was Twin cam Escorts or Mini Cooper S's (English) Valiant Chargers or GT Falcons (Australia) or Mustangs, Corvettes and Camaros (top spec ones) (State side) You might have hankered something different from that era,(Ferarri Dinos, Lancia Stratos, Alpine Renaults, or what ever, but what ever it was as we grew older and locked the kids out, we now have a spare $ to spend on the dreams of our youth. How much would you pay for any of those cars now? There is more demand for, than there are of those vehicles, so they are almost un procurable unless you made lots of money.
My son -in-law likes the early Japanese cars (these kids are sick!)The military vehicle thing is the same for us.
Yes Chris I agree the WWII M.Vs. appeal to mostly older people, and yes there are a smaller group coming through who will chase them. This is due mostly to the lower birth rate. However there are always those few who have picked up the dream from their father, uncle, or neighbour. (Some really sick ones are into Landrovers!)
I was pleased to meet a few young guys and see many others at War and Peace in the U.K. recently who have, or are developing the disease.
I don't think the majority of people get into this for the money (a few do) because it is a "love" or "passion" (for you hard arses that can't use the L word)
I think the hobby is healthy enough.
As we fall off the perch and our patient and long suffering wives flog our stuff off for peanuts, younger blokes will snap it up. (her words, not mine) At which point they become the custodian, most of who will not look after our cherished treasures as well, know as much about them, or drive them as well as we did (in our humble opinions) I won't care because I will be busy trying to put out the fire!

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

When I was at high school with no $ (still the same) It was Twin cam Escorts or Mini Cooper S's (English) Valiant Chargers or GT Falcons (Australia) or Mustangs, Corvettes and Camaros (top spec ones) (State side) You might have hankered something different from that era,(Ferarri Dinos, Lancia Stratos, Alpine Renaults, or what ever, but what ever it was as we grew older and locked the kids out, we now have a spare $ to spend on the dreams of our youth. How much would you pay for any of those cars now? There is more demand for, than there are of those vehicles, so they are almost un procurable unless you made lots of money.

Now that you mention it, there is a 1975 sting-ray out in the garage. It is truly an American icon of decadence and style. 8 feet of hood, 4 feet of cockpit, and 3 feet of tail. It is like driving the batmobile with it's never-ending hood. It actually belongs to the wife.....I just get to do the repairs like the frame replacement I did a couple years back.

Come fall, it looks very out of place in the shed between the MVs and howitzers.

They are actually very reasonably priced, although one should really read up before heading out with the cheque book to buy one.

[Bob Carriere]

...after a spin in the cab 11 I feel like 19 again....... getting out of it I feel like 70......

Temporary custodian concept is very accurate...........
Personally I hope to be buried in it.

Cheers

[David Dunlop]

Interesting thread. Not sure there is any simple answer, but there are a number of constants worth looking at when it comes to collecting (of any kind).

Interests change over time. What was in demand yesterday, may not be at all today and may or may not be tomorrow.

For the vast majority of collectors of anything, there is always a base, personal connection motivating them to collect whatever it is. This does not have to be a direct connection, but can be through contact with a close family member who had a direct personal contact. If this connection does not exist, these collectors will not exist.

Unless you are extremely well financed, and have a keen eye for the best (or someone in your employe with such an eye) most collectors are not doing so as a means of investment.

Ford's museum action does not surprise me. If they cannot keep the crowds coming, they close their doors. 20 years ago, a local radio station promoted itself as the home of Classic Rock from the 50's, 60's and 70's. They are still around today, but guess what, they are now the home of Classic Rock from the 70's, 80's and 90's.

If any one thing concerns me about the future of military vehicle collections, it would be indifference. The largest pool of MV's still belong to World War Two and there are still a lot of people alive today that directly connect to that point in time. When those generations are gone…

What could happen to those of us with large collections? Take a look at the Littlefield Collection. Did it stay together? Did all the pieces get top dollar? Will they all be looked after as well as the original owner looked after them?

David

[rob love]

My own personal belief is that some vehicles are timeless, like the Jeeps, while the demand for more unique stuff like our CMPs will fade as time goes on. How many young guys even own a timing light these days, or enjoy the purr of a flathead V8?

My own club seems to lose about 2 or 3 old members for every new member that gets involved in the hobby. Mind you, it could well be that in today's world of internet, the necessity of joining a club is not as great as in the past.

Anyway, time to go vote in the poll and see where I stand in the rankings.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Rob

I just came back today from an end of the season cruise day, 123 vehicles attending I took my HUP along with lots of display information about the history of the truck in particular its restoration and CMPs in general. Drew a continual stream of people over the 5 hours I was there. Some casual interest people and some read every page of information I had posted.

So there is hope.

Cheers Phil

[Robin Craig]

I am 52 but still think I am 19 but after two failed marriages everything I buy is either on the line of credit or it is invisible cash from small flips, I don't have a fat wallet but we do have a couple of Ferrets and a Land Rover 101 but no garage as yet, maybe my priorities are wrong.

R

[lynx42]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Interestingly, my local Ford museum, housing the world's largest collection of Ford vehicles - no less than 214! - is auctioning 47 pre-war Fords and veteran and vintage vehicles to make the collection "younger". From the auctioneers site: "The Ford vehicles are being auctioned because the Ford Museum always wants to ensure that its range can be recognized by visitors. The decision was, therefore, taken to exchange the pre-war Fords for vintage vehicles that are not as old."

Hanno

Hi Hanno and others.

Hanno, I just went through the whole 48 vehicles currently under auction and there are only 5 with bid so far. Some pretty cheap ones available too.

I have to agree with everyone. I am the president of our local vintage/classic car club (and have been for far too long), The average age is now in the over 60's and there is not the same interest in the older cars as there was 15-20 years ago. The public love the older cars, but now days do not have the knowledge or space to restore a vehicle.

My father said many years ago the the interest in the hobby will come from those people who remember their first car or the cars that were in the news when they were young. That is why there is so much interest in the super cars of yesterday today.

We are all just custodians and we must eventually pass on to the next generation the vehicles we have saved. Of course the problem there is the lack of knowledge within todays youth. Most do not know which end of a screwdriver to use. Then there is the family time, mortgage, school fees etc which are so much higher than when we started, let alone the lack of availability of parts at a reasonable cost.

We have to just keep showing our vehicles and encouraging every person who shows a little interest in our hobby.

Regards Rick.

[chris vickery]

Well said Rick.
The truth of the matter these days is that many of this generation have grown up watching TV, playing Xbox video games or generally letting their minds rot.
I believe that many of us grew up with knowledge because it was gained by exposure- if you worked on a farm, pumped gas at the local service garage or helped Dad by holding the flashlight while he was fixing something. At least thats the way I grew up. We played outside and created our own fun. We built forts and go-carts from whatever junk we could scrounge. When we were older it was old lawnmowers and field buggy cars cobbled together from junkyard scraps. We modified our bicycles or built what we could so we could HAVE a bicycle. No sense of entitlement was given.
Kids today don't want things unless they are cool, come in a fancy box or are endorsed by some idiot actor or sports celebrety. God forbid you try and pass off a hand me down or used item.
Little wonder why it is difficult to attract youth...

[Ian Fawbert]

Hi all,

I'm 31. I started with my first jeep at 19, then a second at 20 and so on.

I guess I'm different in my interest though as my parents both met in the Sydney based Vintage Motor Club (celebrating its 60th anniversary just last week!). Dad with a 1928 Oldsmobile, Mum a 1930 straight 8 Nash, both cars still in the family and regularly rallied (well the Nash is getting an engine rebuild at be moment!). I first cottoned onto the idea of the lack of young people in clubs in my early teens- despite the VMC getting alot of cars on rallies and we went to a lot of rallies around NSW/the east coast too, my younger brother and I were often the youngest or only young ones on the rally!

Regardless, I have 'won'/been awarded youngest driver at the major rallies we attend each Easter for far too long. The last time I got it (2012) I stood up and asked the room (300 people much much my senior) how many had a child or even better grandchild over 16. Alot of hands went up. I then said that everyone with their hand up needs to let those kids drive their cars that at then 30, I was tired of getting and didn't want to be given youngest driver any more!

I think the fact of the matter is alot of kids have alot more on their mind. There is so much on offer to attract them in every direction and probably by the time they get to a point they might be able to show an interest (if not inspired by their parents/family/friends) alot are trying to afford a house of family and an old car, whatever the age is not high on the list or, for manyof the vehicles we have, an affordable option in todays market prices- 15-30k jeeps dosnt help them much! I'm just lucky that I was able to buy a jeep cheap enough and had parents with the space and encouragement to help me restore it. I think when prices drop which they will (look at the low true 1919-1930 vintage car prices in the 90's opposed to the higher prices of the 80's) as others have said, that will help more enter the hobby.

Not an easy one to solve and I also think we'll just need continued and varying approaches. The days of clubs (which cater for our vehicles and older) just sitting back and young members approaching the with or looking to buy a car are long gone I'd say. Plus, the old idea (maybe already eluded to above) that 'kids' of today will be interested in their parents era of cars doesn't help. All that said there are young guys and girls moving through the clubs I see around NSW- take a look at the Corowa swim in- there is an increasing younger group of people there! So, young people are getting involved, just not in the numbers many of us would like to see.

Curiously though, when I see pictures of rallies in Europe (admittedly MV ones) there are ALOT of young guys and girls driving vehicles, so there is an interest there somewhere. I wonder what European clubs or cultures have done which helps promote his, or am I just seeing a small group of people over and over relative to the technology I am viewing them on?

Cheers,
Ian.

[Gordon Yeo]

I have been to celebrations in Holland in 1995 as a spectator and as a participant in 2010. I think the reason there are young people interested in military vehicles is because they are immersed in the history of WW2. They also have such a huge concentration of running vehicles in such a small geographic area. Europe lived the privations of war and celebrated freedom. Canada went from economic depression to an economy of prosperity that provided jobs and demand for every commodity we could produce. Big difference between experiences.

[hrpearce]

I am in the most popular age group so far and will be there for two more years. Our motor club is going strong with members from 17 to early 90's.
The 17 year old is restoring a Bedford truck. Both my boys drive manuals and it only took Greg 12K's to master the blitz gearbox. Sam can't drive it until he gets his P's, the insurance doesn't cover L's.

[Robert Bergeron]

Friends,

Historical military vehicles and old cars are not the same.

This summer i paraded WW2 and Korean war veterans before the crowd at our local airshow at the airport in a WW2 GPW and a F-15A Cmp . A Corvette would not of made the grade...

What a great reception the Vets got !

Yesterday , i brought the 1944 GPW to a WW2 veteran's funeral. His 5 sons and one daughter were all there around me as if i was their father's long lost buddy he had last seen in Antwerp ! They were so thankfull i felt a little self conscious for the attention i got.

I bring at least two trucks to the local Cenotaph for Remembrance day . I have had veterans drive them in convoy for old times sake. They really, really appreciate .

Our hobby is alive and well, we just have to outreach and get involved with and in the community .

The point is , we are custodians of historic military artefacts not just collectible old sport cars. Let's show them to the kids and folks so they learn their history.

My two cents.

Bob

[hrpearce]

Since this poll started several responders have moved up an age group making it not entirely accurate today.
As the numbers change it appears the age of entry into this forum is around 41 +.

[Jordan Baker]

Thanks so much for making us all feel that much older. Although I'm happy to still be in the under 35 group.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

Thanks so much for making us all feel that much older. Although I'm happy to still be in the under 35 group.

Blink and you'll be celebrating your 50th birthday wondering what the hell happened. Ask me how I know. I can still pound steel and reach into the bowls to change fuel pumps and the like so things aren't that bad.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Robert Bergeron

...
I bring at least two trucks to the local Cenotaph for Remembrance day . I have had veterans drive them in convoy for old times sake. They really, really appreciate .

Our hobby is alive and well, we just have to outreach and get involved with and in the community .

...

I do something similar at my Legion Branch's parades. The vets get to drive/ride while I march.

Terry

[Ed Landstrom]

I haven't seen any statistics to back it up, but there's a popular theory that the current crop of teenagers aren't interested in learning to drive, let alone restore, because it would interfere with the time they spend on their electronic devices. According to this theory, getting his driver's license on his 16th birthday is no longer a boy's major goal. Even if he is interested in military vehicles, driving one on a game console is better than driving on a road in every way (cheaper, safer, cleaner, more comfortable, and he doesn't have to leave his patents' basement to do it).

If this theory is correct, we may run out of Uber drivers. It's a good thing autonomous vehicles are almost ready, or no one would be able to get around.

My children learned to drive quite a while ago, and none of their children are quite there yet, so I don't have any personal experience with the supposed phenomenon, but there must be people on here who can comment.

[chris vickery]

Ed, todays generation of Millennials scares the crap out of me for more than one reason. Not all of them, mind you, but most.
Its easy to assume that as we get older we become our parents, simply complaining about the way today's youth acts, their attitudes etc.
This time though, I really think kids are different, and in a bad way.
Self entitlement, lack of empathy, no morals, unable to maintain personal relationships, the list goes on.
Time to hide under a rock.

[Jon Bradshaw]

I just saw this post while looking thru this area of the forum. I have never explored this part and have been on here for years. I am 41 and have been getting into this hobby for about 10 years now. I am known to a few of you out there and meet a few as I travel across the country each summer as the "MLU express". As the older gentlemen sell off the collections I am confidant that the younger people will buy the vehicles that are restored. The old basket cases in the back 40 are the ones that will end up going for scrap. Many of the younger generation (myself included) don't have the skills of working on engines because the cars we have now are mostly computer and don't require fixing as much as part swapping. I have taught myself how to weld and tinker but still need plenty of help when it comes to the finer points of working on an engine. Carbs are a simple looking thing until they don't work right, then I don't know how to set them back correctly.
In summary I think the hobby will continue but the value will soon top out as the restored vehicles become more available, parts will be the big value. Since even restored vehicles will continue to break.

[Ed Williamson]

One large problem that is happening right now is the trend of the Governments restricting and banning Military Vehicles from being registered and used on the road. Why would someone invest time and money in something that they will not be allowed to use. Unless we see more pushback against and revercial of this trend it will have a huge impact on the hobby.

[Ed Storey]

If you think vehicle collectors have it bad in Canada, have a look at the firearms guys; they are really getting a rough time from the Government. It is basically the same tactics, government overwatch with a lot of misinformation fed to the public - all under the broadbrush name of 'safety'.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

If you think vehicle collectors have it bad in Canada, have a look at the firearms guys; they are really getting a rough time from the Government. It is basically the same tactics, government overwatch with a lot of misinformation fed to the public - all under the broadbrush name of 'safety'.

The average citizen spoon-fed what they need to know by the government inevitably asks why anybody needs to own a 'tank' or an antique, historic firearm or whatever. And if you can't satisfy them as to your need because it really isn't a need, it's a harmless, beneficial pursuit you want. But of course in a free and democratic society it is all based on what you 'need' and no more, right???

[KevinHann]

My Son is 11, my Nephew is 15. Both are very much into Re-enactment and MV's.

Both have built up some wonderful original (and reproduction) uniforms and kits and both are very keen to come with us and help us with our wartime trucks (My Commer and my Brothers GMC).

But, both boys already acknowledge that they wont be able to afford vehicles like ours in the future, not just the cost of buying them but also restoring, maintaining, running, insuring etc.

So, in saying that, they both know that the vehicles we have now and that they help us restore will one day be their responsibility, the curatorship will be handed down to them.

That is basically how I see our hobby moving forward, handing down the knowledge and getting these kids in at ground level on a restoration so they know everything about a project and they learn to take pride in the vehicles and the work they put into it.