Another Mk.I Canadian colour question

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Ron Pier

We seem to associate military vehicles with Army Green, all my Dinky toys as a kid were green. But it seems to me that there was an awful lot of light to mid greeny brown, even more earth or service brown and ending up with Olive Green towards the end of things. Ron

Associating colour is a bias. In Canada almost all CMP's, if they weren't painted red, were not their original khaki or brown. They had been repainted a 1950's era gloss black green as per M series vehicles. It was so common that many took it for granted CMP's should be dark green and questioned if they saw one in an original colour.

[chris vickery]

The colour arguement goes round and round and I suspect it always will.
Doesn't matter if it is the Jeep police or any other group in the MV hobby.
I think one of the main issues is in making a determination as to when and where colours were changed. Then there is the issue of one manufacturer to another.
The problem with using old paint chips to colour match is the fact that even the colour on NOS parts has deteriorated with time.
I would suspect that the truest way to achieve original colours would be to obtain original chemical formulations. Even the bases would require original composition, not to mention the exact mixes.
Somewhere I have an original formula for Lightstone which needed to be calculated into modern measures.
Back in the 40's CIL used a measurement called "dial" which does not translate exactly into today's measurements.

[Ron Pier]

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, just pointing out my own observations. You've reiterated what I've said about variations in shades from different manufacturers. Not to mention mixing old stock colours with new.

I needed to respray a vehicle panel recently and found that I have seven partly used tins of BS 298 Olive drab from different firms and none of them match at all!! Seriously! If modern firms can't get it the same by using the same formula, what chance is there of getting a match from a 70 year old recipe?

My advice is to chose a colour that you like and get it mixed as near as poss, but get enough done for future use. My experience is that the same firm using the same formula will give you a different shade.

It's the same with household paint from B&Q.

Ron

[chris vickery]

Ron
You are right on the mark. Anyone who has ever undertaken a painting project in their own home can attest to matching paint. We have all run a gallon short and run down to the paint store to get another mixed only to find it slightly off...
I am sure back in the day manufacturers were buying paint in bulk and I would bet money on it that colour varied from batch to batch, especially during wartime conditions. Not quite the same as today where it can be sent back because its off spec.
When I did my 12 cab Ford, I painted it in Lightstone.
Some NOS parts I found were in this colour and even they varied in tone...

[Richard Farrant]

This is why paint manufacturers always say if you are doing a big job to ensure all the paint has the same batch number.

When was working for army workshops, we would have lines of vehicles on the park, for instance a long row of Bedford MK's and although all were painted in the same shade of IRR green, every one of them looked different. This would be down to age of paint, whether it had dirt ingrained in it, wiped over with an oily rag, painted by brush which came out different to spraying, etc.

I have found a large area of SCC No.2 Brown on a vehicle that was inside and covered, this was matched by a paint company and was exactly what I wanted, but bet your life when the vehicle stands next to another they will look different!

[Tony Wheeler]

At the risk of disagreeing I suspect we greatly overstate batch variation during WWII, as a convenient excuse for our own inability to achieve batch consistency, and our failure to even attempt standardization across the MV community. This is not intended as criticism - a host of factors conspire against us here, which did not apply in WWII.

One of these factors is our miniscule batch size, which multiplies the required accuracy of tinter measurement by many orders of magnitude. For example, one pint of yellow tinter in a 10,000 gallon production batch would probably equate to a fraction of a droplet in a 4 gallon batch. No paint shop machine can measure tinter that accurately, which is why house paint varies from batch to batch, despite being mixed to the factory formula. Another factor is continuous production, which enables continuous matching, and even mixing with the previous batch to achieve consistency. These techniques are simply not available in small batch production. Another factor of course is expertise and equipment - there's no comparison between the local paint shop proprietor and a team of scientists at the factory lab.

On the question of wartime conditions compromising batch consistency, this runs counter to our general expectation of milspec production, ie. more stringent than civilian production. Unless there's some particular "wartime" reason for long established companies to suddenly experience quality control problems not faced in peacetime, there's no reason to assume they did. The reality in wartime is technological improvement, not the opposite.

Rather than assume wartime inconsistency I think we need to recognize the enormous hurdles we face as restorers - miniscule batch size, complete absence of colour standards, reliance on 70 year old paintwork, etc. etc. We simply can't hope to approach the batch consistency achieved in large scale commercial production, any more than a homebrewer can approach the batch consistency achieved by large commercial brewers. Nor does it really matter, as Ron says - the only imperative is that you're happy with the colour yourself. Likewise your homebrew!

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Tony

Agree that batch size may play a major part in consistency. Over the years I've noticed that paint mixed in gallons is more likely to match than pints even when mixed by the same person.

But having said that there is another really key issue the word "MIXED" probably to many of us take too little time mixing / stirring paint. Once we have taken any paint from a can that is not really mixed all hope of the paint matching is pretty much over.

Also different colors are easier to get good match like light stone is easier than olive drab. Just as some paint will fade quicker.

Cheers Phil