Summer 1945, Eibergen, Holland: please identify

[Grant Bowker]

Since "Mitch" came from Quebec, you should also consider Michel for his name, along with Jean-Michel. It was also common to have Jean or Joseph (or both) ahead of the name commonly used.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Grant Bowker

Since "Mitch" came from Quebec, you should also consider Michel for his name, along with Jean-Michel. It was also common to have Jean or Joseph (or both) ahead of the name commonly used.

Agreed. "Mitch" might be an English-version of the French nickname, Mich' which would rhyme with MEESH.

[Robert Bergeron]

Gents,
A little detail regarding the tie these most proud NCO's are wearing.
The famous canadian author Farley Mowat page 298 in his book ''The Regiment'' calls this tie the ''Zombie tie ''.
He recalls that during most of WW2 , Canadian NCO'S wore their battldress tunic buttoned up as officers wore open collar with shirt and tie.

Only from april 1945 onward were dress régulations changed for cause of uniformity.Reinforcements coming from Canada called 'Zombies '' because they had spent comfortably most of the war in Canada , wore the shirt and tie so everybody was ordered to do so .Them nobody., at first glance could differentiate an old hand from a newcomer .

The question of draftees vs volonteers was very controversial then.

Mowat adds that the tie was black wich is confirmed by the picture..

So the date of the picture is unquestionable. The identity of the two brave canadians is still unknown at this point.

Maybe if someone could enlarge the picture and figure out a unit ...

Happy New Year. Health and remembrance.

[Ed Storey]

Not to contradict Farley Mowat, but Neckties were actually authorized for wear by Canadian Army Other Ranks in June 1943. This was promulgated in Canadian Army Routine Order 3333. They were permitted for wear when off-duty in barracks, for leave or walking out, working in offices or when attending lectures or similar indoor instruction.

The Army issue Necktie was indeed black although U.S. and British manufactured Neckties were also worn. Canadian ORs in Italy seem to be the first to embrace Neckties, as through Mediterranean Expeditionary Force stores they were being issued U.S. manufactured Enlisted Men's (EM) shirts which had collars; so obtaining U.S. EM Neckties was apparently not difficult.

Neckties being worn by Canadian ORs in England and NM Europe took a bit longer, late 1944, as for the most part the ORs were still being issued the standard collarless shirt which would have had to have been modified with a collar at the soldiers' expense. Units training in England may not have allowed OR's to wear Neckties, but by late 1944 OR collared shirts were being manufactured by the British and or course the ubiquitous U.S. EM shirt was being issued to Canadians in NW Europe.

[Ed Storey]

The derogatory term 'Zombie' was indeed applied to Canadian Army conscripts during the Second World War. Unfortunately due to misunderstanding, prejustice or perhaps a little of both the term was at times loosely applied to the complete Canadian Home Defense Army. I have had Canadian WWII Overseas Veterans openly refer to the Home Defense Regiments and formations as 'Zombie' units. They were surprised to learn that these units contained a good proportion of volunteers who had through no fault of their own not been sent overseas.

[Robert Bergeron]

Thanks Ed for your detailed references.

Farlew Mowat was a Hasty P's in 1st Div. so he arrived later in the NWE theater of war.

The tie thing was new to the guys just arriving from the maelstrom of Italy.

In turn this opens up a whole new can of worms.... as they were called D Day Dodgers.

Some were called Zombies, some were Home Defense when they wanted to see action and others were called D Day Dodgers.

In the beginning some attacked ghosts in Kiska Alaska when the island had been deserted by the Japanese defenders .Then too many were killed and too many others captured after a month on Hong Kong by the same Japanese .Then there was the mystery of Dieppe.

Even with all the study , the visits of the place , the interviewing of some of the actors , i could never understand the meaning of Dieppe.

Then General Crerar wanted action for the too many restless Canadians that had been in England since 1939 , so there was Sicily and then Italy.

In the end , they finally made it to NWE and the Big show , the one portrayed in the Press made our way thru France, Belgium and then proceeded to liberated Holland.

All the while the RCAF guys had been sustaining dreadly casualties ever since 1939 and the RCN guys rode the North Atlantic in little boats called Corvettes. Unfortunately they were not speedy, comfortable sports cars but utilitarian uncomfortable tools for U Boat hunting . they were quite brave.

So call them Zombies, D Day dodgers , Home Defense Battalions or Corvette riders , doesn't matter.

All that matters now is that they served their country and that they all deserve our admiration.

They certainly have mine.

Robert

[Ed Storey]

Robert, the point of my e-mail was that the wearing of ties by the Canadian ORs in Italy was not new to the Corps when they transferred up to NW Europe, as the Canadians ORs in Italy were the first to embrace the wearing of ties in 1943. Farley Mowat's comment about ties is erroneous or a mistake at best and does not reflect the actualities of the time.