Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Mrs Vampire]

I also was kindly sent a paint chip matched by Jacques

My opinion is that it is a good match with the 1942 Khaki Green J paint chip.

I understand from Jacques' letter his CMP is late production Australian Ford CMP . He indicated that means late 1944 early 1945.

Both GMH and Ford were using 1942 Khaki Green J until the end of production to a lesser or greater extent.

All parts and assemblies made before Dec 1944 would be the 1942 colour. Things like sump protection pans, fan shrouds, brackets ,seats and so on would all have been the early colour and in my experience were that colour on NOS parts sold after the war.

The manufactures and subies had a lot of it , they were going to use it and they were not inclined to respray parts already painted.

The decision to move to Australian KG3 was made in Nov 1944 ( off the top of my head ) That decision meant any vehicles deployed overseas would be repainted the darker colour and I suppose, but have no proof yet, the specification for new production vehicles would have been changed.

The order for mainland vehicles being more generally repainted was more an early 1945 order and as I indicated earlier was one where eggshell gloss applied to the north of Australia and overseas and full gloss to Vehicles that were unlikely to be in a "War" zone.

The manufacturers appear to have simply over sprayed vehicles as they came off the line and incorporated the new colour in a transitional way so I would suppose many would have KG3 on most everything but Khaki J on things that would require dismantlement to repaint.

That poses a quandary for the restorer as one might find Khaki J on the tops of chassis rails or under lap joints when the vehicle was essentially painted KG3 all over from the factory.

The archival evidence is that the time from issuing an order in respect of colour change to it being implemented was long and inconsistent. Given production of CMP ceased very shortly after the KG3 order was issued I think very very few vehicles wold have departed the factory entirely in that colour and none without some remnant parts being Khaki J

I think most vehicles that were KG3 would have been painted that colour by Army engineering depots and re-fitment workshops.

Because of that I think the restorer is best to select the period the vehicle represents and go with the scheme for that time unless more complete and compelling evidence is found to support the original external paint scheme.

My experience is that the KG3 fades to a colour that is hard to distinguish from faded Khaki J ...and given they are both from the same basic formula and tinted and toned to the final colour, that's not surprising .
The Gloss level Jacques achieved with the "Flatted" sample supplied me is a little higher gloss than eggshell . It looks like it is closer to 10% ( maybe 7 or 8%) eggshell being around 2-3% .
A complicating factor is that Khaki J was toned down towards the end of 1942 and again in mid 1943 making it closer and closer to KG3

I think of all the pragmatic choices, gloss level is the biggest. The flatter the look the higher the maintenance and respray interval. I am a dead flat person but The vehicles I have seen painted eggshell look grand .

[Mike K]

I read somewhere that there was a shortage of yellow pigment in certain areas , a yellow tint is needed for the making of the khaki green .

I have a 1939 GMH made chev cab, it has a little tag on the cab that looks to be there from new stating, "this vehicle is finished in synthetic enamel" I will take a pic of the tag

[Mrs Vampire]

look forward to seeing that Mike.

Synthetic most likely refers to Alkyd enamel

[Private_collector]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I have a 1939 GMH made chev cab, it has a little tag on the cab that looks to be there from new stating, "this vehicle is finished in synthetic enamel"

Maybe there is a 'naturally occuring, organic' enamel somewhere. That's one drilling rig I wouldn't wanna work on.

Seriously, it may be Yellow Ochre tinter. That seems to feature in most vehicles I painted over the years. Even if it was in trace amounts, sometimes.

[Mark Mackenzie]

Greetings,

I have been searching for the origin of KG3 for some time and believe it may have originated as far back as WWI and was based on colour of the British Army Uniform. My reasoning for this is the history and articles on the excellent web-page on "Blanco":

http://www.blancoandbull.com/

If you read from the beginning, the colour was originally "Blanco No. 53":

http://www.blancoandbull.com/blanco-history/no-53/

which was then picked up again for WWII as KG3:

http://www.blancoandbull.com/blanco-history/kg3/

This colour is more of a brown shade that Khaki Green J. It can be seen in colour film at IWM and was used on vehicles and equipment (helmets etc) universally (as shown below).

Cheers,
Mark

http://zoom.iwm.org.uk/view/20346&ca...ject-205123850

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib...at=photographs

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib...at=photographs

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib...at=photographs

[Mike Cecil]

From Gina: "It seems from my reading the army folk were inclined to refer to Khaki J from that chip-set as Khaki Green Number three and that a perception that because that colour was changed three times ( twice in 1942 and once in 1943 ) the resulting colour was Khaki green version 3 or number 3."

For what it is worth, the Standards Association of Aust Standard Colours for Camouflage paints (the colour chip book issued with AS No. (E) 2K.509), issued January 1943, shows 'J. Khaki Green' ( not just 'Khaki') with a note: 'Equivalent to Army Khaki Green No. 3.' So the Dept of Home Security (ie Dakin's team), who developed the Aust paint colours for general use (not just Army), designated their colour as KG, which they then refer to as the equivalent of the Army's designated colour KG3 - which would explain why Army persist in calling the colour KG3 - no matter what its source - or have I got my wires crossed up somewhere?

Mike

[Mrs Vampire]

Florite paints have provided all the stenographic analysis and colour matching , even visiting the Tank with their electronic equipment to ensure we had it right.
All of the paints we are testing and producing are available from them . That includes all of those on Mike Starmers chipset sheet.
where I am at with the paint colours.
picture 1 from the left KG3 (Australian) KGJ from my best sample to date Lower rectangular plate OD9 from TM9 Ordinance , Small white sample above that Inside White for Stuart spectrographed from pristine sample, happy to say 100% on that one, Upper square sample Jacques colour match of his KGJ sample the light green sample is the primer colour for the Stuart ( other than the very dark grey base primer on some other parts and areas. )
Next is the KG3 commonly used in Australia compared to Mike Starmers chipset. Mike is a very highly regarded colour expert from the UK. I note that the UK version of KG3 is considerably Browner than the Australian version. This I think lends weight to my theory that Australian KG3 is the third toning down of KGJ ( First late 1942 , then mid 1943 and again late 1943 ) But unless Mike has it completely wrong the UK and Australian KG3 are very different colours.
third photo is my latest best shot at KGJ (1942) compared with Mikes chipset. It most closely approximated the British version of OD ( but note that colour is somewhat different to American OD ) But really its like none of the UK colours.
Finally on the Desert yellow "light Stone " as seen on some 25pdrs for example the one in the AWM and the one at Bandiana. The Australian examples seem to be quite different to the one in the Imperial War Museum and on other UK based examples. I am able to get a chip of that and will have it tested and post a sample when I have it.

Mike the files have the Chief of engineering in the Army referring to Khaki Green J as does Dakin and others until the final act of despair by the army in November of 1943 where he declared KG3 would be the standard colour and all attempts at disruptive schemes would be abandoned. Dakin agreed with him. The Army had problems firstly applying the disruptive patterns as per orders, then in parking the vehicles so it was effective. If the vehicles were incorrectly placed the disruptive because of the recognizable pattern became easier to spot not harder.
After observing US vehicles painted uniformly olive drab in joint exercises with the Australians Dakin and the army were convinced it was the easiest most effective way to camouflage. The decision to adopt KG3 does not refer to what that meant in terms of actual colour. Looking at Mike Starmers chip it is clear the Australian colour is much greener than the UK version. Mike Starmers has observed the UK KG3 was not a part of the BS chipset rather a colour developed by the army over time.
Given there is little resemblance between the KG3 UK and the Australian KG3 in am inclined to the idea that this is the third version of KGJ . Though others have pointed to references to KG3 by the Australian army prior to November 1943. That , in my view is as you suppose the britisification of Australian terminology by some, and not a reflection of what was going on with the boffins who were mixing up the brew and those in the senior ranks who were getting exasperated with all the changes and near impossibility to get uniformity of application and use out in the field.
From my reading of the files I still stand by my position the only paints colours available were those approved by the military . The repair of motor cars being one of the few exceptions where a civilian could get paint for other than a defense authorized purpose. The paint supply committee held tight reign on the rationing of paint and pigment.
The issue with differences in colour seems to narrow down to paint that was made in Melbourne which faded very quickly and was considered unsuitable. It took a little while for that situation to be resolved but explains that in black and white photos there appears to be some widely different colours.

[Mrs Vampire]

I have also nailed the primer used in the fuel tank bays and the undersides of the fuel tank armor as well as the interior white from pristine unexposed samples. The green is 95% right the tiny difference being due to the chromate pigment used in the 40s being no longer available . The interior white I am 100% confident .
As for the green...its bright but its right

All paints including those on Mike Starmers chip set are available from Florite in Sefton NSW. They provided the spectrographic analysis and careful comparisons as well as visiting the Tank to ensure as accurate match as is possible.