Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Private_collector]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I have a 1939 GMH made chev cab, it has a little tag on the cab that looks to be there from new stating, "this vehicle is finished in synthetic enamel"

Maybe there is a 'naturally occuring, organic' enamel somewhere. That's one drilling rig I wouldn't wanna work on.

Seriously, it may be Yellow Ochre tinter. That seems to feature in most vehicles I painted over the years. Even if it was in trace amounts, sometimes.

[Mark Mackenzie]

Greetings,

I have been searching for the origin of KG3 for some time and believe it may have originated as far back as WWI and was based on colour of the British Army Uniform. My reasoning for this is the history and articles on the excellent web-page on "Blanco":

http://www.blancoandbull.com/

If you read from the beginning, the colour was originally "Blanco No. 53":

http://www.blancoandbull.com/blanco-history/no-53/

which was then picked up again for WWII as KG3:

http://www.blancoandbull.com/blanco-history/kg3/

This colour is more of a brown shade that Khaki Green J. It can be seen in colour film at IWM and was used on vehicles and equipment (helmets etc) universally (as shown below).

Cheers,
Mark

http://zoom.iwm.org.uk/view/20346&ca...ject-205123850

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib...at=photographs

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib...at=photographs

http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib...at=photographs

[Mike Cecil]

From Gina: "It seems from my reading the army folk were inclined to refer to Khaki J from that chip-set as Khaki Green Number three and that a perception that because that colour was changed three times ( twice in 1942 and once in 1943 ) the resulting colour was Khaki green version 3 or number 3."

For what it is worth, the Standards Association of Aust Standard Colours for Camouflage paints (the colour chip book issued with AS No. (E) 2K.509), issued January 1943, shows 'J. Khaki Green' ( not just 'Khaki') with a note: 'Equivalent to Army Khaki Green No. 3.' So the Dept of Home Security (ie Dakin's team), who developed the Aust paint colours for general use (not just Army), designated their colour as KG, which they then refer to as the equivalent of the Army's designated colour KG3 - which would explain why Army persist in calling the colour KG3 - no matter what its source - or have I got my wires crossed up somewhere?

Mike

[Mrs Vampire]

Florite paints have provided all the stenographic analysis and colour matching , even visiting the Tank with their electronic equipment to ensure we had it right.
All of the paints we are testing and producing are available from them . That includes all of those on Mike Starmers chipset sheet.
where I am at with the paint colours.
picture 1 from the left KG3 (Australian) KGJ from my best sample to date Lower rectangular plate OD9 from TM9 Ordinance , Small white sample above that Inside White for Stuart spectrographed from pristine sample, happy to say 100% on that one, Upper square sample Jacques colour match of his KGJ sample the light green sample is the primer colour for the Stuart ( other than the very dark grey base primer on some other parts and areas. )
Next is the KG3 commonly used in Australia compared to Mike Starmers chipset. Mike is a very highly regarded colour expert from the UK. I note that the UK version of KG3 is considerably Browner than the Australian version. This I think lends weight to my theory that Australian KG3 is the third toning down of KGJ ( First late 1942 , then mid 1943 and again late 1943 ) But unless Mike has it completely wrong the UK and Australian KG3 are very different colours.
third photo is my latest best shot at KGJ (1942) compared with Mikes chipset. It most closely approximated the British version of OD ( but note that colour is somewhat different to American OD ) But really its like none of the UK colours.
Finally on the Desert yellow "light Stone " as seen on some 25pdrs for example the one in the AWM and the one at Bandiana. The Australian examples seem to be quite different to the one in the Imperial War Museum and on other UK based examples. I am able to get a chip of that and will have it tested and post a sample when I have it.

Mike the files have the Chief of engineering in the Army referring to Khaki Green J as does Dakin and others until the final act of despair by the army in November of 1943 where he declared KG3 would be the standard colour and all attempts at disruptive schemes would be abandoned. Dakin agreed with him. The Army had problems firstly applying the disruptive patterns as per orders, then in parking the vehicles so it was effective. If the vehicles were incorrectly placed the disruptive because of the recognizable pattern became easier to spot not harder.
After observing US vehicles painted uniformly olive drab in joint exercises with the Australians Dakin and the army were convinced it was the easiest most effective way to camouflage. The decision to adopt KG3 does not refer to what that meant in terms of actual colour. Looking at Mike Starmers chip it is clear the Australian colour is much greener than the UK version. Mike Starmers has observed the UK KG3 was not a part of the BS chipset rather a colour developed by the army over time.
Given there is little resemblance between the KG3 UK and the Australian KG3 in am inclined to the idea that this is the third version of KGJ . Though others have pointed to references to KG3 by the Australian army prior to November 1943. That , in my view is as you suppose the britisification of Australian terminology by some, and not a reflection of what was going on with the boffins who were mixing up the brew and those in the senior ranks who were getting exasperated with all the changes and near impossibility to get uniformity of application and use out in the field.
From my reading of the files I still stand by my position the only paints colours available were those approved by the military . The repair of motor cars being one of the few exceptions where a civilian could get paint for other than a defense authorized purpose. The paint supply committee held tight reign on the rationing of paint and pigment.
The issue with differences in colour seems to narrow down to paint that was made in Melbourne which faded very quickly and was considered unsuitable. It took a little while for that situation to be resolved but explains that in black and white photos there appears to be some widely different colours.

[Mrs Vampire]

I have also nailed the primer used in the fuel tank bays and the undersides of the fuel tank armor as well as the interior white from pristine unexposed samples. The green is 95% right the tiny difference being due to the chromate pigment used in the 40s being no longer available . The interior white I am 100% confident .
As for the green...its bright but its right

All paints including those on Mike Starmers chip set are available from Florite in Sefton NSW. They provided the spectrographic analysis and careful comparisons as well as visiting the Tank to ensure as accurate match as is possible.

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Gina,

This is an interesting discussion. Taking into account the following comment "Given there is little resemblance between the KG3 UK and the Australian KG3 in am inclined to the idea that this is the third version of KGJ . Though others have pointed to references to KG3 by the Australian army prior to November 1943." I looked at just how early in the papers I have that KG3 is referred to as such. The earliest reference I have is the specification MGO 101 'Paint, Prepared for use, Khaki Green No.3. For application by Spraying. Specification to govern supply and Inspection Approved 5 May 1940.' It was issued as CS/1269 in Australia and was accompanied by a colour 'tint ship'. You must have seen it - it's held in the Vic office of NAA.

The next comment is in a letter dated 3 Dec 1941, between Sec Dept of Home Security to Sec Dept of the Army, which refers to experiments in Southern Command conducted in Oct 1941, where the paint pattern used was English, but with 'Khaki-green No.3 substituted for British Standard Service Colour No.61 Light Stone'.

More telling is the preamble to Mech Circular 301 of 22 Jan 1942, para 3, which states "Australian paint manufacturers are at present supplying Gas Resisting paints in Khaki Green No.3 and Light Stone BSC No.61." Earlier in that paragraph, it states that 'gas resisting paints should be used if available, but disruptive painting is not to be postponed on this account. Camouflage Paint, Type B, Australian Standard Specification Emergency Standard No. (E) K.507 is to be used for colours other than gas resisting." (my underline). In other words, continue to use KG3 and LS BSC61 gas resisting in preference to the equivalent colours in (E) K.507 (KG-J and Light Stone-N), but don't hold up work waiting for the gas resisting paints if they are not available.

Paragraph 4 states 'The basic colour of vehicles for use in Australia is Khaki Green No.3; those for the AIF being Light Stone BSC 61.'

The first issue of the ASC chart of colours including Khaki Green ASC J was December 1941. The ASC suite of colours were developed by the research organisation headed by Dakin which only came into existence in 1941, prior to the National Camouflage Regulations which were promulgated in August 1941.

To me, Mech Circ 301 clearly differentiates between the Khaki Green No.3 gas resisting paint, and the paints as listed in Standards Association (E) K.507, which included Khaki Green ASC J. As (E) K.507 was developed during 1941, and the chart first issued in Dec, it seems that the Army's KG3, prepared to MGO (Aust) 101 specification, predates by a couple of years, the existence of the Khaki Green ASC J as show in (E) K.507, rather than being a '3rd version of KG-J'.

A further interesting aspect is the experimental vehicle camouflage viewed at Wesley College. Melbourne on 13 June 1942, which was painted in Khaki-Green No.3 and Light Stone W. The report/memo concludes that the KG3 was too light and that it should be darkened to accommodate fading 'which is bound to take place'. Is this experiment the basis for darkening the colour of KG3?

I also have the E in Cs letter of 9 August 1942 wherein he refers to 'The basic colour for use in Australia in Khaki Green (ASC J) gas resisting', and in many other references at various levels from that date onwards, I see references to KG ASC-J as the basic colour, (rather than KG3) and Light Earth ASC W as the disruptive colour. (for example , 2 Aust Army Adm Instruction 35 of 15/9/42, and 1st Aust Army Circular 31/8/1942, the latter instruction being for a three-tone scheme of KG-J, Light Earth-W, and Blac- U - now that one really is different!)

By later in 1942, we see almost no reference to KG-J or KG3 in Army circulars, with a three tone scheme of Veh Dark Green, Veh Medium Green and Vehicle Grey being the basic camouflage scheme. This continues well into 1943, when the set of Army Design Directorate drawings were issued for the above three tone scheme. These are dated in May 1943.

The RAAF, interestingly, begin their camouflage deliberations (for vehicles) by referring to 'all vehicles in future to be finisihed in Khaki Green No.3, to the latest Army specifications ...' on 5 January 1942, but on 8/1/1942, their MT & Marine Craft Order 2/34 refers to 'Khaki Green J', as do all subsequent references, for example, in February 1942, they refer to 'Khaki Green Camouflage Paint J (Non Gritty) with a RAAF ref number K4/10091, a reference that remains constant for much of the ensuing few years. We see a change in December 1944, however, when RAAF Instruction 2/20 states the finish of RAAF vehicles will be 'Khaki Green Matt Synthetic Resin Based Enamel K4/10394'.

To sum up as I see the evidence I have:
(1) KG-3 is an Army colour that existed long before Professor Dakin's Dept of Home Security and his ASC colours, including KG-J, came into existence;
(2) Around mid-1942, Army start referring to KG -J in place of KG-3.
(3) The RAAF refer to the Army colour KG-3 only once that I've found, then quickly change to all references being KG-J.
(4) I have no references to the ASC set of colours being in existence prior to late 1941. (Dakin refers to developing colours in correspondence during 1941, and to not having addressed colour development for certain areas such as Darwin area, for example, but does not list the colours specifically by name.)

Regards

Mike

[Mrs Vampire]

Mike

Then if KG3 predates the 1942 colours what is its provenance given Mike Starmers work and the stark difference between UK KG3 according to his research and The Australian version that does look remarkably like toned down KGJ .

Is it the britisification of Australian army language??

My reading of the files indicates the Australian colour set came into existence in late 1941 so that coincides with your information. I will re-look up the Melbourne file next time I am down there hopefully with a spectrograph. I also read that the paint was too light and did not account for fading but the file I had that from was referring to J not 3 and I think it was also referred to in Dakins notes ...I have recently had those put online. Dakin makes clear the fading issue was particularly problematic with the paint made in Melbourne , other suppliers being sufficient fade resistant to pas the AS test. .

[chris.bruton]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

...We see a change in December 1944, however, when RAAF Instruction 2/20 states the finish of RAAF vehicles will be 'Khaki Green Matt Synthetic Resin Based Enamel K4/10394'.

Hi Mike,
I am currently restoring a 1942 Willys MB with my dad and he has some old paint tins marked:

Enamel Matt
Khaki Green
M.E. 2010
MIX 307. 6/49
S.A.A. INT. 23.A.
K4/10394

We opened one up and mixed it through and the consistency surprisingly still looks ok.

Where is it possible to get a copy of the RAAF instruction you mentioned "2/20"?

Sorry I'm still new to this and deciphering the forum info, but wondering if this would be a suitable paint for the jeep restoration or what it would suit?

How rare is this paint? Would there be any benefit for the group in sharing samples? Happy to contribute.

Regards,

Chris