Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Mrs Vampire]

"The earliest reference I have is the specification MGO 101 'Paint, Prepared for use, Khaki Green No.3. For application by Spraying. Specification to govern supply and Inspection Approved 5 May 1940.' It was issued as CS/1269 in Australia and was accompanied by a colour 'tint ship'."

doesn't seem to show up in the search engine. Do you have a BC or reference number for it.

[Dianaa]

Gina

I know its not within your era, but in your investigations have you found a supplier who can do the 1960s to 1980s Australian Olive Drab?

My Mk3 International is about to be repainted. This entered service in 1964 as Deep Bronze green but along with most other vehicles in the Army fleet was repainted to olive drab sometime after 1965 and this is the colour I would like to use.

The repaint colour for the Inters and Land Rovers of the time was a Wattyl Industrial finish NSN 8101-66-025-5003 with the Wattyl numbers: paint code = 151603.20 and part Number 8010/660255003 for the 20 litre drums. This paint was last purchased by Gary in 2010 but Wattyl have today advised it is no longer available.

Currently touch ups on my truck have been done with the available Protec 342-1166 - Camouflage Green however this is a component of the 1990's era AusCam and not correct for the Mk3 service period.

My preference is for a period correct colour for my own Mk3, a mates ex-Vietnam 17 Construction Mk3 and a M548 to do over the next couple of years, so do you have any ideas of a supplier?

Diana

[Mrs Vampire]

If that is the same paint that you supplied me a sample of and we decanted into 4 litre tins that is in the Florite data base and they can make it .

That paint was coultards Alkyd 405488 Camo Green 6477

Other wise provide me with a sample and we can spectrgraph it and get it into the data base. something bigger than about 4 inches square and as pristine as possible.

Exact matches for those paints is not a possibility anymore. From the Mid sixties the Army was playing around with pigments that gave the same infra red reflection as the foliage they were going to be used near. The pigments are generally not available.

The upshot is a re-matched paint will look identical save that in some light conditions will look different . Given others must have done this with Land Rovers especially and I have not heard an outcry about colour matching I guess the colour matching so far has been good enough to pass muster or some one still has some original supplies someplace.

I note the REMLR club has some chip-sets from the period . perhaps we could convince them to get them spectrographed and make the information generally available .

http://www.remlr.com/paint.html

[Dianaa]

Wattyl have come back to me a second time and suggested that the tinting color code still exists as "ADE Olive Drab" but the tint base paint isn't available.

They are suggesting using Paracryl IF540 and the Paracryl IF540 Mating Base. What do you think?

(had a bit of trouble reducing the matting MSDS to a size that would upload).

[Mike Cecil]

"Then if KG3 predates the 1942 colours what is its provenance given Mike Starmers work and the stark difference between UK KG3 according to his research and The Australian version that does look remarkably like toned down KGJ ." - there are two questions here, so, to the first:

I don't know the provenance of the Australian KG3. I agree it is different to UK KG3 (Mike's work), but was that simply a matter of 'variation to suit local conditions'? In other words, Aust didn't like the UK KG3, and mixed a version to suit local conditions? That's pure conjecture, of course: I have not studied that aspect or have anything archival to indicate that, I just accepted the fact that it existed, and, after exchanges with Mike many years ago, that it was purely 'Australian' with the only common factor being the name.

As to the second, rather than 'toned down KGJ', given the timing, you could look at it from the point of view that Dakin's team simply arrived at a similar colour in their research (and why wouldn't they? They were dealing with the same physical environment and camouflage challenges), and may well have 'modified' KG3 to become KG-J to align the colour more closely with their research results, ie, a 'better' version based on research. The ASC chart certainly lists KG-J as 'equivalent to Army KG-3' - it's written across the bottom of the colour chart page.

I haven't seen ref to KG-J fading (but also haven't looked for it, either): the only ref I have is to KG-3 and the suggestion to darken it, dated in June 42.

PM me with your postal address and I'll send you an Army Olive Drab colour sample chip from the 1960s/70s that might help you and Gina.

I'll look up the file ref with the KG3 chip in it and send it to you. The spec is buried in an MP729 file in Melbourne.

Nice work, Gina. Certainly thrashing out a few aspects on paint!

Mike

[Dianaa]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

If that is the same paint that you supplied me a sample of and we decanted into 4 litre tins that is in the Florite data base and they can make it .

That paint was coultards Alkyd 405488 Camo Green 6477
...<snip>

Hi Gina

You must have posted while I was writing my reply so I didn't see your one till today.

No the paint I gave you was later than the 1960s/70s.

When you go to places like the Corowa Swim-In you'll find lots of different hues being the paint restorers were able to find. e.g. My SIII FFR was painted by the previous owner who went to his local paint supplier who found a listing for Land Rover 1980 MoD Green and assumed this was the Australian Department of Defence colour when it's actually a British equivalent of NATO Green.

The issue for me is that my mate (and where I store my Mk3) was a RAEME craftsman in the 1970s and he doesn't like the colour match of Protec Camo Green etc he wants to use the Wattyl colour he used in service because it is the correct colour for the era.

If my vehicle is to live next to his and probably go out together it is better that they both match.

Will try to find a panel to spectrograph off.

[Mrs Vampire]

I feel confident Florite will give you as close a match as is currently possible with commercially available pigment.

I have been told Wattle have moved onto clear bases and new pigments to cut back on the number of colour bases they need to stock. In any case The pigment of the original is still likely to have IR properties.. The Army had been working on that even in the closing days of WWII. The Paracryl recommended seems to be a two pack paint that can't be glossed down below around 20%

I would recommend an Alcyd paint . Eggshell Gloss level (3%) is being used a lot for KG3 as it is maintainable in showroom condition for many years and rejuvenation with baby oil for shows. The original you are seeking was certainly dead flat ( less than 1%) Dead flat cannot be achieved with flatting agents or by mixers like Bunnings etc auto suppliers or even protec except at their factory in SA. .... The flatting agent for dead flat remains Talc and is now only done by factory mixers. Hence Florite or Proteck factories rather than agents and on sellers.

Dead flat of course will mark and scuff fairly easily ( as complained about during the wars) and also is susceptible to Glossing up in the event of oil spills and rubbing... For my own part I am going with dead flat. I want my tank and Gun Tractor to look used as they did when in action. I am not one for Factory show room finishes.

Recent developments with Army security etc etc mean some pigments are now considered not suitable for release for civilian use. But a colour sample and spectrograph will sort that out.

Gina

[Dianaa]

Thanks Gina will look for one.

Thought the M548 would be better in that colour too.

Diana

[Mrs Vampire]

Mike

The problems with the paint from Melbourne are mentioned in Dakins notes as well as a few other places.

I have all the files put on line and I think the links are in this thread. I especially paid to have the Dakin file in Sydney put on line as it contains his original hand written drafts. corrections and editing. Some of the stuff he decided to leave out of the final draft makes for interesting reading.

The file also contained the photos that accompanied the final version but not the pamphlets or the orders as held by the AWM. The orders are likewise very interesting reading.

My understanding was that prewar the vehicles were painted deep bronze green 24 as per the British army. Having seen Mike Starmers sample it seems very very dark indeed.
The photos of Carriers and the Mk VI Vickers seem to have them in a very dark green but Mikes looks a lot darker than even them ...almost black...his notes indicate I would be surprised if the mixing formula was followed and he was right. I was.
I had thought my Stuart was exported in that colour as it was made and exported under a British lend lease contract.Photos of M3A1 ariving in Australia show a very dark all over base colour.

The base colour of My Stuart is not American OD of any shade, Nor is it KG3 Australian or British and it is defiantly not s dark as Mike S' sample of DBG24 ,

My feeling at present is that it is an ACF version of British Camo green ...in a similar way to the Aircraft from the US being exported to British lend lease in Camo Colours of their own invention ( Curtis and Lockheed for instance )