Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Mrs Vampire]

Some more from my research

I have managed to borrow a paint spectrograph for a couple of weeks and have now inspectd and measured the sample plates held by the AWM.
I have also read and copied a good deal of Frank Hinders personal papers.

I cant post images right now but will later.

The results are .
The standards plates held by the AWM have faded to the extent they are not useful being at least four shades lighter and a Good deal of damage and scuffing of their surface. Sufficient to establish that the gloss is les then 1%

This makes the Berger samples in the national archive the most reialble source given it has been well protected and rarely exposed to light.

The Canberra plates were not devised by Hinder as noted on their details of the artifact. They were in fact devised by a paint technologist from Berger paints in Melbourne in 1940 loosely based on the British standard colors adapted to Australian standards and availability of non led pigments.

I have managed to find some of the base pigments and proportions for some colours .

The AWM has , using the Munsel system and the Australian Standards book ( which they do not poses a copy of so they used a borrowed copy) .have had two sets of plated made. They are very very close to those plates I have had access to and I regard them as close enough.

Their KG3 colour is the same as the Protek / Bob Mosely colour . There is a disparity on the KGJ and Light Stone depending if they acquired the artifact pre restored or they did the job themselves. Their KGJ is spot on however the dingo is not accurate.

The North African Desert Yellow is all over the shop with the Marmon Herington , the Long 25pdr and other artifacts being quite different colours. This is puzzling as they have a captured German AA Gun painted German Tan and over painted with the UK "Desert Yellow " ( light stone )
The original artifact is a good deal more yellow than either the Marmon Herington or the 25Pdr

I also viewed the 2 pdr which has been on display for many many years. The paint is original and as used in Malaya. It establishes the pre war Deep Bronze Green as used in Australia up until about mid 1940 . It is quite different to the Deep Bronze Green used after the war and somewhat different to Mike Starmers sample.

All in all a very interesting visit

[Mrs Vampire]

Couple of Photos re last post

Right is a photo of my I phone 5 next to a plate from the series to give an idea of the size. They are steel and quite heavy...also of interest is the damage to the surface due to rough handling over the years. The AWM search the collection facility on the web indicates they have two sets. A through search of their holdings has only found this single set.
Two possibilities. One has gone missing, or it was incorrectly cataloged in the first place.

Left photo from left to right Original plate from Berger held by AWM paint sample from original Can applied to plate 2016 and finally Florite reproduction using modern available pigment ...Colour KGJ ..of course

[Mrs Vampire]

This one more accurately shows the difference between the Original KGJ from NOS 1942 unopened tin panel created 2016 and the standard plate created by Berger held by the AWM

I think that fairly comprehensibly shows the uselessness of the AWM plate-set for the purposes of a Standards reference.

I note in passing the photograph of the plates in the online search of the AWM collection shows the set in much better condition than they appear to be now.

Tony's comment re the plates being the authoritative standard noted however it is now apparent the only standard more accurate than the Melbourne Berger samples or a well stored copy of the Australian Standard is cans of original unopened paint stock.

The standards in my publication will be based on the Australian archives chips the Australian standards books I have access to and the cans of original paint I have been so kindly loaned.

The Canberra plates are the only known surviving set of original standards plates.

[Mrs Vampire]

Tony the dark Tarmac chip for the Australian colour set is in the archives.

MP508/1 305/733/146 Camouflage finishes (with sample)

[Tony Smith]

This may or may not be relevant to this conversation, but in Australia, Dulux Trade Centres are selling a colour scanning device called the Snapshot.

Dulux have had for some an app for you phone that allows you to take a picture of a painted surface to find the "Name" of that colour in the Dulux range, to then allow you to go and buy the paint you liked so much on your friends dining room wall, your neighbor's fence, or your landlord's apartment.

Now, the Snapshot will also allow you to do that as well, but it will also record the colour tint to allow a match if the colour is not a propriety Dulux colour.

Is this likely to as good as a spectrograph? I doubt it. Is it likely to be able to record a colour to enable a batch of "very close" auto enamel to be tinted? Probably. It's not the answer for everyone, but it might suit some.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

This one more accurately shows the difference between the Original KGJ from NOS 1942 unopened tin panel created 2016 and the standard plate created by Berger held by the AWM

I think that fairly comprehensibly shows the uselessness of the AWM plate-set for the purposes of a Standards reference.

Tony's comment re the plates being the authoritative standard noted however it is now apparent the only standard more accurate ........... is cans of original unopened paint stock.

Cans of original paint can give you any shade of KG3 you could desire!

[Mrs Vampire]

Tony S

I have a slightly different take on that can of paint and would very much like a sample as I have never seen that shade before. Given it is special High temperature paint I expect the basic composition would prevent an exact match by the maker to KG3 colour plate.

It would be a boon to all of those MV restorer out there who have to put KG3 on exhaust pipes etc to heave the correct colour.

Many thanks for posting that picture and making me aware of another facet to the puzzle.

[Mrs Vampire]

Well it's done . I have now spectro'd the Berger coulor set in Melbourne as well as their KG3 sample .

I have a complete set of readings from available sources .

[Mike Cecil]

Well done, Gina: a lot of work in all of that.

Some background: From memory, the AWM's Dingo was based upon a paint layer analysis, so the status of the original paint before it was covered with the next layer could well have been weathered.

The MH tractor was as supplied by the seller in Qld (I arranged for its purchase), so it's his gloss/semi-gloss version of Light Stone. Same with the Limber and the more recently acquired No.12 FGT. I think the 25-pdr in the storage area (there is also one on display in the WW2 gallery) was done in Lustreless Acrylic, which from my limited experience with it, is never a close match to anything! In the least, it was a modern water-based paint, so a different formula to its WW2 counterpart. Conservation were always so concerned with 'off gassing' of enamel paints into storage or display areas that the then-conservation manager almost always opted for Acrylic. So I've little doubt that none of the items coloured Light stone/desert yellow in the collection are a match to each other or to a 'standard' example!

Great work, Gina. We have all learned a lot from your labours.

Mike