Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Lionelgee]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

"Mike Cecil has informed me that some production pre 1942 was done in "desert yellow" This is still in the research to be done envelope. If that is so then just what shade was used will be interesting as Australia was developing its own "desert yellow" shade that was no where as "yellow" as the British shade'

It was called Light Stone or Portland Stone. Portland Stone in particular was a very 'washed out' colour, hardly yellow at all.

Vehicles allocated to the AIF in 1940-41 by contract were supposed to be supplied from the contractor's works in this colour, and those destined for the AMF were supposed to be finished in green (ahh, I hear you say .... but which green? The pre-war/peacetime green, or KG3????)

Mike

Hello Mike,

Not green Mike - Khaki and from Dulux (DLX ?) as well!

As per the plate on the firewall Colour DLX KHAKI
Batch No: -
Date: KO

Who needs a batch number anyway!

Not sure what the "KO" represents as a date?

"Khaki" what else would you need to know?

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Mike K]

This is new to me

http://milepegsnt.com/site/vehicle-camouflage-markings/

[Mike Cecil]

so who is 'he'?

Mike

[Mrs Vampire]

I have had a chance to do some close inspection on Stuart M3 Hybrid .

I had thought the Vehicle was , on first brush< from the NT force but on closer inspection I see it is third Armoured.

It is clearly painted Khaki Green J and Light Brown P.

Given that the colours on my tank could be interpreted either way but seem more brownish than yellow I not think my earlier certainty on Light Stone was mistaken.

The colours on this Hybrids rear doors are very very well preserved.

I Know the vehicle was made in Feb of 1942 and think it was delivered in time for the exercises out near Narabri or very shortly after.

I have been able to see the remnants of the formation sign but have not yet found evidence of the unit number but suppose it would be the 13th .

I will do some test panels and compare the contrast . I am now firmly on the side of KGJ and LBP for third armoured.

The evidence is also that the lower parts of the vehicle were either not repainted from the imported colour od Bronze green or the paint that was on them has washed off...again the paint is very clear and in good condition

[John Ward]

Do we know what ASC Grey G or Vehicle Grey looked like?
Mike Kelly already posted this above but there's an order in "12 Aust Div GS Branch NT Force" (p.99, Oct 1942) with three different mixtures for Grey (although it doesn't explicitly state that the colour is Grey G) and another one "14 Adelaide River Line of Communication Sub Area" (p.14, Dec 1943, following SM 4803 from Mar 1943) calling for Grey (Vehicle Grey in the charts attached).

So are they (Veh Grey & Grey G) even the same and if not, does that mean there was five greys?

[Mrs Vampire]

The Grey for the NT force was meant to be the standard colour chart grey however a recommendation that it might be mixed from a combination of standard colours was made in NT force orders.

The standard colours and various mixes will be included in the book

[Mrs Vampire]

Just opening the discussion again in respect of discussions I have had with Tony and after having read Stephen Tabouts attempt on Vehicle markings.

I remain unconvinced that a scheme that incorporated vehicle Greens or Vehicle Grey was ever used.

I have reread the files concerning this especially 32172419 which discusses it at length and even appears to promulgate orders that specify such a scheme.

There are several difficulties here. The special order for a scheme for NSW , the debate that was ongoing and inconclusive among the various commands through out 1943, especially the objections of Qld questioning its usefulness the expenditure of labor, and other resources and the general push for each different command to have their own scheme.

There are also issues with that file flying in the face of very very definite instructions and orders in relation to the application of camouflage. Two that stand out is the requirement to adhere tightly to the laid down pattern. Camouflage instructions of the time make it clear that having uniform camouflage patterns in fact makes vehicles easier to spot not harder. The eye will train itself to see repetitive patterns in a landscape so the more chaotic the pattern the more difficult it is to see. The second issue is the idea of diffuse edges. All camouflage instructions insist on definite edges even outlining them with a brush so there is a sharp definition between tones. This is a primary rule of camouflage and can be seen in most armies of the world at the time . ( save those who had opted for single tone camo .)

The earlier referred to file AWM52 1/8/46/13 has a scheme for The Adelaide river area and specifies a scheme of Vehicle dark green vehicle medium green and vehicle grey.

There are a couple of difficulties with taking this as an absolute proof that such a scheme was ever used.

The first is that it was promulgated on the 8th December , within weeks of the Master General of Ordnance declaring that all disruptive schemes will be discontinued forthwith and KG3 will be applied to all vehicles irrespective.

Daikin confirms this in his history of Camouflage noting that after observing exercises of the US Army, who used only olive drab , that it was as effective as disruptive especially after the vehicles had been "muddied" up.

The Second it the selection of colours . The question here is why would three new colours be needed , a dark green a lighter green and a grey given all of those colours could be found on the existing colour chart.



I am also disappointed with Stephens treaties in that he has attempted to recreate the documents from archival sources rather than simply post images of the originals. It leaves one pondering just what has been included and what has been omitted for convenience sake or because of its relevance in the judgement of the author. The lack of attribution of sources in the Biblio or foot notes means it is impossible to go to source documents to verify the information.
I have managed to find a few and the difference between Stephens recreation and the original is enough to make more detailed observations from the originals

The schemes for vehicles seem fanciful, though I am told they were taken from an archival source I have been unable to locate it . It appears they are recreations of a Pamphlet issued in 1946 "painting of Army Vehicles" I havnt see the pamphlet so what relevance it might have to 1942/43 is unknown.

I remain unconvinced that the three toned scheme Green D Green L and V grey was ever used. If it was I would also need to be convinced that standard colour chart tones were not used. It makes no sense to me that new colours would need to be invented given the range of colours available and that those in the files proposing the changes had the resources to properly formulate colours and provide the requisite samples to the Standards association...

Finally the issuance of the schemes and the paint colours needed the final approval of the Master General of Ordnance . I cannot find any order to effect such a change from that office. The Camouflage bulletins refer to all the changes so far as I know and there is no reference there.

B&W Photographs available of three toned schemes are not all that helpful as the 1942 order specified five three tone schemes most of which would be indistinguishable from dark green , medium green and grey , Indeed I have had a couple of correspondents who have insisted schemes are three tone from very indifferent photographs whose history and location are unknown and shadowing and mud could constitute the third tone of a two tone scheme .

In the end the artifact is the ultimate arbiter providing care has been taken to maintain remnant camouflage schemes. Failing that a photograph and adherence to schemes that have definite and proven unit provenance.

If anyone has links or can provide references to Vehicle Drawings outside of those I have already posted or references to Standards to paint colours beyond those contained in the Emergency Standard Jan 1943 I would be grateful .