Canadian Dodge, 3 ton 4x2

[Kevin Goodwin]

Hi all,
This is my first post on here, introductions first I am based in England on the East Coast in the county of Suffolk, not too far from Tom Watts.
I have recently purchased this 1943 military Dodge, which according to the farmer has not been used for at least 45 years, the truck is very complete with most if not all of its data plates. The plan is to restore the truck to correct war time spec, there has been mainly one modification carried out to the truck, that being tipping gear and frame added below the original body, with the rear of the chassis shortened to allow the body to tip. the truck also originally had a gun cupola which has been covered with a tin plate. I do not know much about this model, so any info anyone can give would be gratefully received, I have many questions to answer, hopefully they will eventually be answered!

The chassis number is 91065118
Engine number is TU01 49435-3
Model D60420 C-GS-1
Manufactured 22/06/43

Whilst looking around the truck this weekend a few initial questions have been raised.
1 - There is evidence of sand coloured paint below the civilian green and war time olive drab, with the manufacture date would/could this vehicle have been built for the North Africa campaign but not issued due to the end of that particular battle, subsequently being painted in the olive drab? or could this truck have been built ready for the Sicily invasion? Or could this just be an undercoat?
2 - The body appears to be correct based on pictures from the few resources available and compared to Tom Watts truck, however are the body extensions original? The iron work, brackets,coach bolts and nuts all look to be of the correct period. I think the rear mudguards are a later addition dating from the tipper conversion.
3 - The dual rear wheels look to be the correct style as do the front 'split rim' wheels, the spare for the rear wheels is carried under the rear of the truck, where would the spare 'split rim' have been mounted?

thats all for now, Kevin

The site will not allow me to upload the pictures at the moment, asking me to log in when I am already logged in! I will have another go when I have posted this.

[Kevin Goodwin]

Hi all,
Some of the pictures are now available to view. I will post more asap
Kevin

[Kevin Goodwin]

Hi all I have lost patience with the site as it will not allow me to upload any more pictures! I will have another try another day.
Kevin

[lynx42]

Hi Kevin,

Welcome to MLU. You have come to the right place to get information.

Your Dodge is a good looking truck and looks like it won't be too much of a restoration.

Here in OZ we had quite a few Dodge D 60420.C, 3 ton 4x2 trucks with the turret opening in the roof and blitz wheels on the front.

Here are some photos of one I had a look at about 12 months ago. Not a tipper but a GS tray.

Regards Rick.



Sitting in a paddock for many many years, it is remarkably complete.



The back end showing the towbar.



ID Plate for the D 60420.C



Known as a D110L. over here.



16 inch x 10.50 tyres on the front and 20 inch x 7.50 on the rear.

[lynx42]

Some more photos



Military clearance black out lights



Front on.



Roof hatch open.



2 speed differential.



Gear change plate and others.

Regards Rick.

BTW. Kevin, try reducing the size of the photos and you will be able to add 5 at a time.

[Tony Smith]

Hello, and welcome to the forum.

The manual I referred to in Tom Watts's thread (MANUAL), shows the TL110-L5 as originally having 10.50-16 tyres front and rear (to Contract SM 2458, dated 30 Jun 42, co-incidentally shown in "Light Stone" or sand paint). It was common practice in post-war Australia (and I suspect Britain would be similar) to fit dual wheels to the rear of many War-surplus vehicles to increase the legally allowed capacity of the truck in civilian service.

Bedford and Austin truck duals have the same wheel stud pattern as the WD single wheel, and are a straight swap on the rear axle. As a dual wheel rim has a different "offset" to a single rim, they must be fitted with a spacer (or a different design hub) on the front axle to maintain steering geometry, but on a 4x2 vehicle any variation in tyre diameter isn't as critical as on a 4x4, so often it was simpler to keep the original wheel on the front axle.

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by lynx42

Here in OZ we had quite a few Dodge D 60420.C, 3 ton 4x2 trucks with the turret opening in the roof ....

All of the Dodge 4x2 60cwts I have seen here have this roof hatch, but as seen in Kevin's pics and the parts manual pic, the hatch wasn't originally specified in the contract. The Hatch and grab handles are very similar to the style fitted to Australian Ford CMPs and MCPs. I wonder if the hatch was an Australian requirement, and was installed locally by Ford?

[Tony Smith]

More (Australian) Dodge info in THIS THREAD.

[Lang]

Tony

The Australian Dodges were delivered direct to Australian forces in the Middle East to an Australian order (not ex-British). About half had 16" singles and half had 20" Duals. There is a note that the duals were for prime mover.

I will scan the documents when I can find them.

I had two cabs both with the plates above the centre of the windscreen which were from those contracts. both had square roof hatch and right hand drive.

lang

[Kevin Goodwin]

Thanks for the replies, the attached pictures are quite useful for future info, my truck is missing the rear tow hitch assembly which I will need to source, the gun hatch on my truck is the circular design, this will also need to be sourced or fabricated, any leads on these parts would be gratefully received.
The dash on my truck is also the same as the other pictures posted.
Regarding the wheels presently fitted, I would prefer to have single wheels all round, especially if it was a war time spec plus for the convenience of carrying just the one spare, this will mean I need to source two more split rims.
I am leaning towards a finish that represents the events in Scily / Italy namely sand colour with the bold camouflage, that's a little way off at this point lol.
I will post some more pictures when I have time, I will also post the pictures of the restoration as it progresses, there will no doubt be numerous questions I need to ask!
Kevin

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by lynx42

Here in OZ we had quite a few Dodge D 60420.C, 3 ton 4x2 trucks with the turret opening in the roof.

Attachment 92925
ID Plate for the D 60420.C

Originally Posted by Lang

The Australian Dodges were delivered direct to Australian forces in the Middle East to an Australian order (not ex-British).
lang

Lang, I have several pics of Dodge data plates in Australia, and they are all from Contract Supply Mech 2458, which as the Canadian Manual states is for the British Army. If they are from an Australian order, the order was placed against British WD stocks (not ex-British Army), and not direct from Dodge in Canada.

Are there any pics of Australian Dodges in the Middle East with the square hatch, as it certainly resembles the Ford Australia design and seems to have been fitted here. Or alternately, are there any extant Dodges from SM2458 in the UK with the square hatch?

David Hayward would have been good to get to the bottom of this.

[Lang]

Tony

David provided most of my information.

I will find the delivery records soon but seem to recall an annotation of "against Australian Order 1234"

The square hatch on the Dodge is much more compact and neater than that found on say a Blitz

Lang

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by lynx42

Here in OZ we had quite a few Dodge D 60420.C, 3 ton 4x2 trucks with the turret opening in the roof and blitz wheels on the front.

Another has appeared on Ebay, appears to be a complete and straight, rust free truck. Just needs work.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VINTAGE-D...K/142475528241

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Lang and Tony,

The hatch is a standard Aust hatch as fitted to Ford Cab 12 CMPs in Australia, utes, etc. It was an Aust Army requirement, fitted by the assembler after the vehicle arrived in Australia. That's why you don't see them on the order, or on vehicles supplied to other countries such as Britain.

It's dimensions were smaller front to back than the hatch on Cab 13 CMP Fords in Australia, but the same from side to side.

The design was a stamped inner welded to a stamped outer, with a hatch rim welded into an aperture cut into the roof of the vehicle. The handles are standard hardware door handles, riveted to a top-hat section welded to the roof in front of the hatch. The handle on the inside of the hatch was the same as the grab handles, and the catch/lock was a standard hardware small-size slide bolt. The hinges were also standard hardware items.

The AWM has a very nice original example. Look up REL24655 on the AWM website.

Mike

[Lang]

Mike

Did the Dodges brought back from the middle east get sent to the workshop in Australia to have the hatches retrofitted?

I just sold two Dodge cabs with their plates on. Both were from the order delivered to the middle east and both had hatches.

Lang

[Kevin Goodwin]

Hi all, things are slowly moving forward with the truck in preparation for collection, on one of the trips to the truck I removed the 2 data plates from the drivers side a post, the larger plate shows the serial number the same as the plate above the windscreen, the other small plate has the following numbers 4292-33326 does anyone know what these numbers relate to? This small plate is plain metal has no other details other than the numbers.
On the list of 'needs' are the 10.50x16 tyres I have had a look on the web for options, the only company I have found is 'Mittas' does anyone have any other suggestions ? There are agricultural implement tyres available but the speed rating is only 40kph (although the weight rating is approx 3.5ton per tyre)
Another thing I have been hunting online for is a picture of these trucks in service with the British, there seem to be plenty of Chevrolet's and Fords but no Dodges other than a few of the 'tipper' variant, has anyone else come across any other pictures?
Kevin

[Lang]

Kevin

Your truck comes from Contract Number 2677. Starting Serial 91063001 ending 91067000. The WD bonnet serial numbers are from L5405350 to L5407859. If you do a cross reference count you should get your original bonnet number for that truck (assuming they numbered them in order). The engine number you put up does not seem right - misread or replaced at some time?


Tony

This sheet indicates the 110 Dodges were shipped "Direct Overseas" for Mid-East and then Australian Forces. The manual has Contract SM 2458 on it because this was the first contract to those specifications. I bet the trucks coming 28 contracts later still had Contract SM 2458 on the cover of their manuals.

Mike

The Dodge vehicles on a W.D. Central Census to 23 November 1944 listing the Dodges delivered to that date all have WD numbers and WD Cat reference for each order eg

WD No From Z4613111 to WD No Z4613593 Cat Reference 8 Contract SM2029
Truck 8-CWT 4X4 Personnel (including shipped to Egypt) Model D8A

The 110 Dodges are shown in a total of 28 contracts including one annotated as AID-CHI 25 - I presume aid to China (Burma Road?)

All have WD number ranges and Cat references beside them EXCEPT for the Australian orders as attached. This coincides with my theory that they were direct Australian orders as they were not allocated a British WD number. You can see they were a mix of single and dual wheel (100 thereof).They of course would have been processed through the British ordering and shipping system alongside the British trucks but there seems to be pretty clear distinction they were not one group.

The very first 110 truck contract was SM2458 which was the Australian vehicles. The first British 110 were not until SM2666. Unfortunately the sheet does not show dates and they could well have been days apart.

Lang

[Lynn Eades]

Kevin, I don't know it all, but the 4 digit number on the plate identifies the body type or style and was important for ordering the right parts. I forget what the other number refers to.
As far as I know all Dodge trucks of the era had them

[Lang]

Her.e are all the Dodge 110 contracts and serial numbers.

[Mike Kelly]

This is all interesting. The AWM have many thousands of pics of the AIF in the field in Palestine, Egypt, Libya and Syria and Lebanon and so on. During the earlier time period 1940-41 , seems the dominant vehicles in terms of the types seen the pics, are the Ford and Chev civilian pattern ( these were shipped over with the AIF from Australia) and then to a lesser degree British stuff like Morris which were , I think, on loan .

By 1942 , going by the pics, the vehicles in use with the Australians in the M.E theatre are more ecelectic with stuff like CMP's included . But I can't say I've seen many pics of those Dodge T110 trucks in the AWM pics, can't think of one actually .

Some cab 12 C60 Chev. did come back from the M.E .

[Lang]

Mike

There are pictures of rows of Dodge 110's in the vehicle park in Sydney on return 1943. Many still in desert colours. If you look up Ryde on Trove/AWM you will see them.

Lang

[Lang]

Here is a photo taken at Ryde.

Only a few Dodges in green, all the rest in desert colours. All have the roof hatch.

Lang

[Mike Kelly]

The Ryde vehicle park would have been a sight to behold.

Maybe the cargo bodies on those T110L's pictured at Ryde give a clue to their origins ? Are they wooden GS bodies ? I can see the Aust. gallows type Bren AA mount just behind the pass. door. Is that a spare wheel cubby in front end of the GS body ?

One of these T110L turned up at Corowa around 1994 , a shed find , it had a quick paint job in a light blue livery. It was eventually sold to Peter Hebard. They are fair numbers of them surviving which would indicate that a fair number of them were imported .

[Rob Abbott]

Hi Kevin
I have a pair of wings and a full grill for one of these if you need any "spares" plus the curved windscreen Glass.
If interested at all I can get you some photos if you let me have your e mail address
All the best
Rob

[Kevin Goodwin]

Thanks to all concerned for the info, it's interesting to see the trucks in the 'Ryde' picture have round roof hatches like my truck, also the 'desert camouflage' looks interesting.
Rob thanks for the offer, the front end on my truck looks ok but I will bear it in mind. Where are you in the UK? And do you have one of these trucks?
Thanks again Kevin

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

One of these T110L turned up at Corowa around 1994 , a shed find , it had a quick paint job in a light blue livery. It was eventually sold to Peter Hebard.

Mike,
I remember that truck on Back To The Track in'95, very nice looking one. Peter was taken into hospital at Alice Springs and the late Dave Brown took the Dodge to a trucking yard for freighting back south. Recollect this well as Dave and I were late leaving Alice, the others were halfway to Barrow Creek!
Sadly I cannot find a photo of it.

regards, Richard

[Rob Abbott]

Kevin
No problem. I don't actually have one of these trucks but I rescued these parts from being binned. Hopefully someone will want them at some stage !
I'm down in Wiltshire.
All the best
Rob

[Mike Cecil]

The Dodge's in the image at Ryde are almost certainly Aust-assembled: Aust LAA gallows mount, roof hatch, Aust cammo. Some are green overall while the others are camouflaged/disruptive pattern Light Stone/KG3 as per the end 1941/early 1942 Aust requirements.

Like Mike K, I can't say I have seen any records indicating, or images confirming, Dodge 3 tonners being operated in the Middle East by Aust forces. The only Dodges of any size were ones in RAAF service, and they were provided by the Brits. Can't say I have ever found any shipping records of Dodge trucks being brought to Australia from the Middle East during 1942 or 1943, either: the vehicles that dominate are CMP trucks, followed by orphans like the WOTs.

I expect the annotation 'and Australian Forces' on the SMs means the BPC allocated them to Aust in the usual break-up of allocations from each SM and they were shipped direct to Aust and assembled locally. Hence, they were not allocated WD numbers either.

Mike

[Lang]

Mike

The annotation read "Mid East and THEN Australian Forces"

Throws the delivery destination in doubt in my mind.

The Ryde vehicles (I think photo is Feb 44) all look new or completely refurbished and do not bear the signs of used vehicles as all the bits and pieces are in order and identical.

Lang

[Mike Cecil]

Hi Lang,

Not to me, given all the other indicators: the 'then' might just as well refer to delivery sequence, ie satisfy the Mid East order first, THEN export the Aust allocation to Aust.

There are a number of factors that I think support that view:
(1) no Dodge trucks listed in the AIF vehicle register, which is where they would have been if delivered to ME & taken on charge there.
(2) no Dodge trucks listed on any of the surviving manifests from ME to Aust
(3) no transfers of Dodge trucks between the AIF register and the AMF register

I'm yet to check through the Aust purchase and assembly contract list (cannot do that until early next week) but I'm reasonably certain I have Dodge truck purchases and assembly contracts listed, ie assembly in Australia, not the ME.

I can revisit this when I can get to the data next week. I agree the Ryde vehicles do look pristine: just as I'd expect of vehs delivered direct and assembled locally with the local mods.

Mike