Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Chris Collins

Colour pigments used in the British army were tightly regulated due to the use of Infrared non-reflective paint, which is precisely why Mid war the brits whent from KG3 to scc2 brown, as most readily available green pigments are highly reflective, and easily observed using IR cameras in PR aircraft. Despite anectdotal evidence and "i spoke to a bloke" stuff, id say very difficult to prove with any authority.

Hi Chris,

I know this thread is strictly about WW2 Australian paint colours, but as you brought up the subject of WW2 British paints and colours, I have to comment on your paragraph above.
It is infrared reflective paint that fools the IR camera, not non-reflective.
The Khaki Green No.3 paint was not formulated as an infrared reflective paint, it was the fact the one of the colour pigments in this green paint was chromium oxide (which has an IRR quality to it) and there was a shortage of it and desperately needed for important uses such as plating, so SCC No.2 Brown was used in its place for a few years. The British camouflage colour range is very complex and different colours and patterns ran alongside each other at the time as there were overlaps and painting for the sake of it was to be avoided.
It was not until the 1970's that the British Army developed IRR (Infra Red Reflective) paint and in service from the 1980's. When I worked in army workshops from early 1970's, new vehicles inc. armour were still coming into service in gloss Deep Bronze Green

[Chris Collins]

Thank you Richards, you are quite correct, my confusion on what would've beneficial reflective and non reflective.

My point in bringing that up is there were reasons to adhear to guidelines on paint that are just as important as its appearance, that may not be immediately obvious.

cheers

Chris

[Mike K]

another diatribe ha ha

In wartime UK, with so many vehicle factories spread around, from AEC London to Albion Scotland and many other places in between , and the many thousands of vehicles produced in a given week . I feel that in time of a emergency as in WW2 , there was very little chance that each and every vehicle rolled out of those factories finished in the same colour, shade, hue or however you wish to describe it.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

hi Chris,
I know this thread is strictly about WW2 Australian paint colours, but as you brought up the subject of WW2 British paints and colours, I have to comment on your paragraph above.
It is infrared reflective paint that fools the IR camera, not non-reflective.
The Khaki Green No.3 paint was not formulated as an infrared reflective paint, it was the fact the one of the colour pigments in this green paint was chromium oxide (which has an IRR quality to it) and there was a shortage of it and desperately needed for important uses such as plating, so SCC No.2 Brown was used in its place for a few years. The British camouflage colour range is very complex and different colours and patterns ran alongside each other at the time as there were overlaps and painting for the sake of it was to be avoided.
It was not until the 1970's that the British Army developed IRR (Infra Red Reflective) paint and in service from the 1980's. When I worked in army workshops from early 1970's, new vehicles inc. armour were still coming into service in gloss Deep Bronze Green

It's interesting that the decision to go from khaki to brown in 1943 might not have been based on some field guys evaluating the effectiveness of one colour over the other based in observations at Salisbury Plain. This is the first time I've heard it might be based on war time chemical shortages or technological advances.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

It's interesting that the decision to go from khaki to brown in 1943 might not have been based on some field guys evaluating the effectiveness of one colour over the other based in observations at Salisbury Plain. This is the first time I've heard it might be based on war time chemical shortages or technological advances.

Hi Bruce
Not sure where you got 1943 from. It was late 1941 that the regulations were issued to use SCC No2 Brown as a the base colour for vehicles. This reverted to olive drab in early 1944.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Richard Farrant

Hi Bruce
Not sure where you got 1943 from. It was late 1941 that the regulations were issued to use SCC No2 Brown as a the base colour for vehicles. This reverted to olive drab in early 1944.

You're probably right, however on Canadian production CMPs almost all 1942 vehicles (based on scraping down to original paint) were khaki and 1943 were brown, then OD early 1944 as you say. This might be the manufacturers not catching up with (or caring about) the regs?

One running board on my February 1944 HUW is OD, the other OD over brown which you can only see when it's taken apart. The parts supply ran on a different schedule than the regs too it appears.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

You're probably right, however on Canadian production CMPs almost all 1942 vehicles (based on scraping down to original paint) were khaki and 1943 were brown, then OD early 1944 as you say. This might be the manufacturers not catching up with (or caring about) the regs?

One running board on my February 1944 HUW is OD, the other OD over brown which you can only see when it's taken apart. The parts supply ran on a different schedule than the regs too it appears.

Bruce,
The British army's Army Council Instructions 1160 30/5/42 declared the SCC No.2 Brown be used on A, B and RASC vehicles or KG3 until present stocks are exhausted. Further on it states 'in future SCC No.2 will be considered the general purpose Basic Paint. Existing stocks of Khaki Green No.3 will be exhausted.'
The Canadian army backed this instruction up with one of their own Divisional Orders, dated 6/7/42

[Lynn Eades]

Richard, A full description of ACI 1160 might add clarity. (this post is not it either)
It states that SCC refers to the colour, and not the type of paint used.

Gina, I have the ACIs for 1940, 41, and 42.

The appendix talks about: (under the title of)
Basic paint:
For Bodies. Wood and metal
Cat No. HA 5715 paint p.f.u. Brown S.C.C.No.2 special spraying C.S.1733)
Or.
Cat No.HA 5638 (or HA 5147) paint p.f.u. Spray Khaki Green No.3 (C.S. 1429) until present stocks exhausted.
Then,
For canvas covers and hoods
Cat. No.HA 6194 Paint Bituminous Emulsion S.C.C. No.2 (T.S.143)
And then,
Cat. No.HA 6145 Paint Bituminous Emulsion Khaki Green No.3 (C.S. 1442)
until present stocks are exhausted.
The first half of the above relates to "A" "B" and RASC Vehicles, the second half to artillery and search light equipment.
Then for steel Helmets:
Cat. No. HA 5861 Paint dark brown textured matt finish (C.S. 1736)
Then for tentage:
Paint Bituminous Emulsion Cat. No. HA 6193 S.C.C. No.1,
Or:
HA 6179-S.C.C. No7
And lastly for Bridging equipment is states:
Special waterproof and anti gas paints will be used as directed in the hand book on maintenance of these equipments in S.C.C. No. 2.

Then there is a column Of "Dark Patterning" for the "A", "B", RASC, Arty, and searchlight equip, with three options.

Then Under the notes column, (for the above vehs. and equip) it states:
Cat. No.HA 6184 Paint Bituminous Emulsion S.C.C. No. 14 (T.S.143) may be used if the preferred options are unobtainable.
There is lots here that means little to me. Given time I can photograph and post if required.
There is a general note that in future S.C.C. No. 2 will be considered the general purpose paint. Existing stocks of K.G. No. 3 will be exhausted.
S.C.C. No. 1A will be the paint of dark patterning and existing stocks of Dark Tarmac No. 4 will be exhausted..

Does anyone one have an index for the Army Council Instructions (A.C.Is)?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Lynn Eades

Richard, A full description of ACI 1160 might add clarity. (this post is not it either)
It states that SCC refers to the colour, and not the type of paint used.

Lynn,
There was no point in me posting anymore than I did, for one thing it would be hijacking the thread and going off the subject of Australian spec paint colours. The point of my post was to correct Chris on his comments regarding British KG3 and why the SCC No.2 Brown was introduced. The chromium oxide related to producing the green in the KG3 paint and as it was desperately needed elsewhere, the Brown was used to replace it, KG3 was still used until the stocks were exhausted, so despite Army Council Instructions on camouflage colours changing, there was still vehicles and equipment in service in several different schemes.
Nothing else to say, case closed.
Back to the Australian paint colours

cheers Richard