Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Mike K]

Discussing paint, this is a interesting pic.

These may be impressed trucks. 1940 GMC's . Notice the chrome grills and bumbers . Has the khaki paint fallen off the grill or has somebody scraped it off ! The wooden tray looks like a farmers setup to me.

[Mike Cecil]

Gina,

I'm a bit puzzled and having some difficulty working out what your perceived time line for KG3 is. Several posts ago you said:

"KG #3 was not used on Vehicles by the Australian Army according to the documentary and photographic evidence that exists until December of 1943. Army orders and paint availability indicate Deep bronze green and British desert yellow (light stone) were used until the Australian "Berger" colour set was adopted. "

and more recently:

"Mike Thanks for the reference But isnt that an RAAF order ??? I will chase it down in any case but it still fits with my contention that KG3 was most likely used as a replacement for BDG24 up until the Introduction of the Australian colours early 1942 and that there would be hang over until the colours were available."

I've bolded the parts of the two statements that appear to me to conflict, ie the use of KG3 not until Dec 43, and the use of KG3 before 1942. Or am I missing something/misreading something?

As for MC301: Army. There are a string of Army Mechanization Circulars. Taubert has published at least one of the later ones that superseded MC301.

Vehicle numbers: I agree with Mike K. Thousands of vehicles in service, and widely spread. Why would that statement about local purchase be placed into MC301 if there was not the strong possibility of gas resisting paint being un-available to all users through the normal Army supply chain within a short time frame?

Mike

[Lynn Eades]

Mike, Is there not the possibility that they were never painted in the first place?

[Mike Cecil]

Lynn,

I think all vehicles supplied under military contract were finished in the paint finish as specified in the contract, whereas impounded or refugee cargo could be any colour. If you look at post 277, the tag, from a 1940 Chevrolet, is finished in 'Khaki', which I would assume means Khaki Green No.3, rather than BDG24, which was Deep Bronze Green, so the word 'Khaki' would be an inappropriate description, whereas 'Khaki' could very well be the factory's way of indicating a KG3 finish.

Another tuppence worth...

Mike

[Lynn Eades]

Sorry Mike C., I was referring to the grills and bumpers of the two GMCs in Mike Ks post.

[Lang]

Looks like the senior officers did not like the army paint scheme. Lots of photos of staff cars (in forward areas, not just Australia) with all their chrome still on.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

If you look at post 277, the tag, from a 1940 Chevrolet, is finished in 'Khaki', which I would assume means Khaki Green No.3

Indeed it does Mike. Army vehicles were finished in Dulux 21-line gas resistant alkyd enamel. Paint code for KG3 was 21-11 but typically not stamped on Chevrolet body plates. Exception seen below.

Other Dulux 21-line finishes include Light Earth 21-24 used for disruptive pattern from mid-1942 including softskin tactical vehicles.

Note B.A.L.M. blurb re sharing of formulae with Nobel in England. This applies also to C.I.L. (Canadian Industries Ltd) who produced the required paint there. Parent company was I.C.I. England.

As we know KG3 was British Army standard colour and Light Earth was RAF standard colour. Having been adopted by Australian Army they were duplicated by DHS in flat oil paint for use in the field. Hence Army instructions specify DHS colours Khaki Green J and Light Earth W. This creates the illusion that THESE are Army standard colours, leading to the assumption they’re used in production. I suspect this may be where Gina is struggling, but it’s all so convoluted I’ve been unable to construct a coherent explanation!

Chevrolet Van 15cwt GS ARN 17048 KG3 Dulux code 2111.jpg

Chevrolet Van 15cwt GS ARN 17048 KG3 Dulux code 2111 body tags.JPG

Dulux 21-line finishes.jpg

Light Earth disruptive.jpg

Light Earth disruptive.jpeg

[Mike K]

Awm 008503 and 021674

[Mike K]

This one is your basic respray job . The background appears to be a cab 12 chevy . It would have helped if they cleaned that jeep before painting it !

[Mrs Vampire]

Mike

I have no document or order specifying KG3 DBG24 or The desert yellow prior to the colour plates in the way I have definite orders etc for the introduction of KG3 in 1943.

The references that are trickling in seem to indicate to me that KG3 was used between DBG24 and the colour plates...But I dont have an order that introduces it .

Ie all vehicles shall be repainted with KG3 henceforth. or even DBG wil be discontinued . I would expect that such an order would need to have been given in 1939..1940 at the latest... So far what I have is a general trickle of mentions .
The formula was in a file that was for Helmet paint ...

So I am assuming it was the interim colour .... Sorry if I seem contradictory its a moving feast for me . I also don't have paint specifications to manufacturers of vehicles for any colour...so far I am inferring from photos

What I have got is the definite introduction of the colour plated and a definite introduction of KG3 1943...1939 to 1942 is less definite

[Mrs Vampire]

tony I have still not seen any document that specifies light earth as a replacement for light stone in 1942

It would be a help if one came to light . KGJ and Light Earth were in the original schemes .

and where does this come from ??? " As we know KG3 was British Army standard colour and Light Earth was RAF standard colour. Having been adopted by Australian Army they were duplicated by DHS in flat oil paint for use in the field. Hence Army instructions specify DHS colours Khaki Green J and Light Earth W. This creates the illusion that THESE are Army standard colours, leading to the assumption they’re used in production. I suspect this may be where Gina is struggling, but it’s all so convoluted I’ve been unable to construct a coherent explanation!""

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Gina Vampire

tony I have still not seen any document that specifies light earth as a replacement for light stone in 1942

Gina, if you haven’t seen the relevant instruction, it’s because you don’t want to see it! For starters it’s there in Steve Taubert’s paper, right up front in the Camouflage section, of which you were so critical just a few days ago:

“I am also disappointed with Stephens treaties in that he has attempted to recreate the documents from archival sources rather than simply post images of the originals. It leaves one pondering just what has been included and what has been omitted for convenience sake or because of its relevance in the judgement of the author. The lack of attribution of sources in the Biblio or foot notes means it is impossible to go to source documents to verify the information.”

In this case the relevant document is Mech Circ 319 of 28/7/42. I’ve posted an original copy along with Steve’s “attempted” recreation. You be the judge.

By way of further explanation I quote from Steve’s preface:

“As mentioned I have collated the various documents in my possession into a single book, in doing so I have attempted to reproduce the original documents as accurately as possible. By which I mean, errors in layout, punctuation and spelling have not been corrected. These documents, especially those relating to vehicle numbering in Part 2, are as close to the original as could be achieved using a modern computer word processor. It was sometimes extremely difficult to exactly duplicate documents, that was produced in a manual typewriter, where the typist could remove the page and reinsert it to achieve typing at various angles. My reasons for reproducing so many documents are as follows:
a) Every instruction represents a change, no matter how minor; they also show increases and decreases in the military Order of Battle,
b) After having so much difficulty, in obtaining the documents that are still in existence, I wanted to assure myself that they at least would not be lost, and that for the first time they could be viewed in a single book,
c) The Australian public have for years, relied on this type of information being supplied by historians from overseas, which have not always been as accurate as one would hope, and
d) After so many years of misinformation, being the only information, it is the simplest way of dispelling doubts in people’s minds by reproducing the original documents as it appeared at the time.

Mech Circ 319 (Medium).jpg

Mech Circ 319 Steve Taubert - Copy.jpg