Info needed: correct colours for WWII Aust vehicles

[Mike Cecil]

Except the 'Dark Green/Grey scheme' two tone scheme existed only at a local level, and even then, I'm not sure just how widespread the application of it actually was. LHQ's SM4809 has no provision for a two colour scheme, using a pattern that matched those issued in MC319. So, again, I think you are making too great a leap from local variations to the use of a two tone scheme of Dark Green/Grey applied in production: the LHQ sanctioned scheme as of March 43 which superseded the two tone KG3/Light Earth of July 42 scheme was three tone (Dark Green/Medium Green/Grey) - there is no mention of a two tone variation in SM4809. (Not Light Grey, or Grey G, or Vehicle Grey - just 'grey' - but which grey?)

In addition, the 'Vehicle Grey' you refer to as standardised in late 1943: is this the Standards Association's 'Grey G', which is a dark grey/ green colour which has very little contrast to Dark Green M, and nothing like a light grey, or is it another shade/mix of Grey? That just throws yet another variation into the mix (no pun intended).

But if you are convinced, Tony, that the 'Dark Green/Grey' scheme is a done deal, then by all means, you (and Mike Kelly) are free to write to the Director, AWM, expressing your views about colours and the disruptive pattern. I'll be interested to see his reply.

Mike

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Except the 'Dark Green/Grey scheme' two tone scheme existed only at a local level, and even then, I'm not sure just how widespread the application of it actually was.

This is where photographic analysis becomes essential to researching this topic. I’ve found when you start actually looking for Dark Green / Grey schemes you find they’re quite common after 1942, but if you’re looking through the prism of DHS colours you’ll continue to see them as Light Stone or Light Earth. That’s just confirmation bias, and we’re all prone to it. If only there were more colour photos our task would be so much easier!

Perfect example of confirmation bias is Gina’s Stuart, which all the evidence indicates received Young’s “Vehicle Light Grey” treatment in the field, slapped on with 4” brush over existing “Stuart Green” using Young’s pattern charts: “a set of new designs were prepared, complying with disruptive and countershading principles of camouflage”. Gina has painstakingly reconstructed Young’s pattern chart for Tanks M3A1 Light, which I’m sure would have delighted Young himself, but he would have been aghast at the colours specified: Khaki Green / Light Stone. Unsurprisingly Gina has been unable to match the actual paintwork on the tank to any known colour.

second 4 on way to Murgon.jpg

Gina's Stuart disruptive pattern.jpg

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

LHQ's SM4809 has no provision for a two colour scheme, using a pattern that matched those issued in MC319. So, again, I think you are making too great a leap from local variations to the use of a two tone scheme of Dark Green/Grey applied in production

Nevertheless Mike we have photographic evidence of scores of No.6 gun tractors on parade in QLD November 43 sporting high contrast 2-tone scheme in uniform MC319 pattern with diffuse colour boundaries, plus one in NG September 43, all of which indicates (confirms!) these vehicles received Young’s scheme in production. And why not? They were already receiving the pattern in Khaki Green / Light Earth, so all it required was to change the paint in the spray gun.

I’m assuming this was done in much the same way that Light Earth itself was introduced into production, ie. without consultation! Recall Young was beaten to the punch with his MC301 Amendment, when MC319 blindsided everyone, and Dakin complained to the Minister, and was still whining to Young two months later:

“I think you should point out to the General that this circular was issued from Melbourne, without either the Technical Director of Camouflage being consulted, or even Army Camouflage Officers….It is practically ridiculous in its set out and instructions, and I feel this will be the opinion of all Army Camouflage Officers….It is obviously too late to alter anything now.”

Young was a good operator who would have learned from the experience, and lobbied the right people to get his MC319 Variation into production. Plus it was widely supported anyway, including by Dakin who developed Vehicle Light Grey.

Meanwhile of course LHQ were busy developing an entirely new scheme, instigated this time by Captain Tadgell, former Secretary of the Sydney Camouflage Group, who took it upon himself in December to propose a rather novel 4-tone scheme, using 2 Greens and 2 Greys developed in camo school with Dakin, who managed to persuade his overeager pupil down to 3 tones, which finally appeared as Vehicle Dark Green, Vehicle Medium Green, Vehicle Grey in March 43 under SM4809.

Not surprisingly this highly impractical 3-tone scheme requiring all new patterns and colours was effectively stillborn. Young’s simple Variation to MC319 was all that was required, and apart from some tweaking of Light Tone it appears to have served until camo abandoned in mid 44.

Fortunately SM4809 did not sink entirely without trace, and this highly evolved 3-tone scheme can be seen freshly painted in 1944 (refer my posts #359 and #360 of 21/9/17) with the very attractive Dodge semi-trailer representing the culmination of Australian Army’s excursion into vehicle disruptive camouflage during WWII. However, when you read how this scheme was cooked up initially, you’ll marvel that it ever got off the ground!

EC6467 Tadgell initiative.jpg

122915 ARN 121711 Dodge 7 ton semi trailer 3-tone camo BARMERA, SA 1944-05-16. HEADQUARTERS, LO.JPG

[Lang]

This says a lot about the Holy Grail search by Dakin, Young, Tadgel and crew. They should have stuck to fixed installations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5fDi8p-C6E

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

In addition, the 'Vehicle Grey' you refer to as standardised in late 1943: is this the Standards Association's 'Grey G', which is a dark grey/ green colour

Yes Mike - Grey G is the DHS equivalent to Army Standard colour Vehicle Grey, which started life as Vehicle Dark Grey! There were initially FOUR colours under consideration in December ’42:

Vehicle Light Grey
Vehicle Dark Grey
Vehicle Green
Vehicle Black Green

Dakin recommended 3-tone scheme and Vehicle Light Grey was dropped accordingly, so with no further need to differentiate between Greys the word ‘Dark’ could be dropped. At the same time they changed ‘Vehicle Black Green’ to ‘Vehicle Dark Green’ and ‘Vehicle Green’ to ‘Vehicle Medium Green’.

Clear as mud!

[Mike Cecil]

As I said Tony, if you are convinced, fine.

I'm not.

Mike

[jack neville]

Gotta love duelling paint brushes!!

[Mike Cecil]

Jack, that's the nature of a good discussion: you don't always have to agree at the end, simply respect the other opinion, then have a couple of beers!

Mike

[Tony Wheeler]

So Mike, how would you explain these carriers freshly painted in 2-tone scheme November 43 in NSW...?

NSW Railways Chullora workshops showing machine gun carriers in for rectification on 23 November.jpg

[Lang]

Tony

Not that I know anything about the paint details but the photo says "in for rectification". This to my mind means they are not new and could well be unissued stocks, built long ago, back to the factory for latest modifications before being issued for the first time.

I have absolutely no evidence but from the photo description, old stock is of equal weight to newly painted. Easy to read into anything what suits your argument while the bloke in disagreement reads the opposite from the same evidence.

Keep it going!

Lang