Cab11 C8 Bush Find

[Pete Ashby]

As you know we were receiving trucks as CKD through the Southampton rebuild plant up until it was bombed on the 30th of November 1940 and then via the Citron dealership in Slough. The early 11 cab trucks all seem to come of the lines with Canadian built bodies.

If your truck was shipped direct to N Africa it would have been reassembled at at two locations close to the the port of Suez up until late 1941 again as CKD with Canadian bodies.
A plausible scenario may be that the C8 was shipped into the UK issued to British forces and shipped out with them to N Africa then 'acquired' or legitimately transferred to Australian forces in theater. The second option is that it was shipped direct to N Africa in late 1940 and issued directly to Australian forces.

Sorry rather hijacked this thread

Pete

[Mike K]

Originally Posted by Pete Ashby

As you know we were receiving trucks as CKD through the Southampton rebuild plant up until it was bombed on the 30th of November 1940 and then via the Citron dealership in Slough. The early 11 cab trucks all seem to come of the lines with Canadian built bodies.

If your truck was shipped direct to N Africa it would have been reassembled at at two locations close to the the port of Suez up until late 1941 again as CKD with Canadian bodies.
A plausible scenario may be that the C8 was shipped into the UK issued to British forces and shipped out with them to N Africa then 'acquired' or legitimately transferred to Australian forces in theater. The second option is that it was shipped direct to N Africa in late 1940 and issued directly to Australian forces.

Sorry rather hijacked this thread

Pete

That may be so but as found there was nil evidence remaining on the vehicle in the form of reg numbers, unit markings , or M.E. theatre paint eg light stone or a camo scheme, nothing. The original faded factory green was evident under a post war applied grey . The only other option is: a post war comprehensive re-paint, this process would have stripped the panels down to bare steel and in the process removed all of the unit markings and reg numbers, but the evidence says this is unlikely. How many people had the time or money to do a strip back to bare steel re-paint job after the war ? I purchased it from the first civilian owners grand daughter. Been in the one family until I found it.

The other two 8cwt's I have . One Morris has the M.E. reg number on the bonnet 0 36?0 . These odd reg. numbers appear on Morris and Motorcycles in Palestine , in service with the AIF ( see the AWM pics) . The second Morris has the light stone paintwork still evident and a faded unit marking. The first C8 has markings all over it .

[Bob Carriere]

In this great world of uncertainty about who did what and when to CMP during their last 75 years I will share my experience and observation on the Early C8 and Cab 11 and 12. I stand to be corrected and open to learn more.

We know that the Oshawa production/built CMP were started late March 1940 but the few made were all date early April 1940....... so Mike May 1940 would make it a very early model. I doubt that it would have any balck out light configuration but would rely on the small marker light you have discovered inside the headlight pots. By the way the full headlight. lens, bulbs and inside marker lights are available at MACs AUTO in the USA. Your C8 like all early cab 11 would have had a solid glass rear window with a window frame unique to the cab 11 and I believe early cab 12..... the frame is composed of two identical stamped sheet metal that sandwich the glass and each half is bolted, one on the inside one on the outside, roof sheet metal in between.

We also know that the very early Chev cab 11 had NO circular air intake on each side of the radiator and were added later during the production run..... so one could assume that only cab 11 models made in April / early May would not have had the air intake installed.

I have never seen the "famous" central dash lights in either C8 or C15..... were they factory installed and later deleted or installed later once in service?

Early cab 11 had a rigid windshield that did not open and all rear windows were solid glass.....with no rood hatch.
....and there are some exceptions..... there is an assembly line picture in the Ford archives showing a cab 11 nose fitted with an opening cab 12 windshield and roof hatch.............. confirming that changes were made on the assembly line as the parts became available...... and the line must not stop!!!!!

Tool box behind the cab opens length wise and there are no provision for a spare tire. The early fuel tanks had a very short vertical fuel cap set up and recessed under the indentation of the tool box. The set up is ridiculous when it comes to refueling..... not sure when in the production run the changes were made for a longer more practical spout. I restored my cab 11 using the early short fuel spout and there is NO current service station nozzle that will fit so when filling at a local station I have to use the horse cock attached to the CMP rectangular funnel to fill the tank....... and with out the automatic shutoff I usually spill a liter or 2 each time. I now use a radiator hose extension that fits the tanks opening and is much less cumbersome.

Back to the cab 11. Please remember that vehicles that staid in Canada, like mine, had far fewer field modification/updates that European models. So my C15a has no rubberlite on the front fenders and no back out light on the rear axle....... and vacant hole for the switch in the rear right frame.

The frame that supports the rear section of the engine.... that allows the bellhousing side engine mount was also modified in production. Were that cross member bolts to the frame rail ....early models were prone to cracking at the upper rivets and sometimes early they reinforced the cross member with an additional layer of sheet metal....... subsequently carried on all cab 12 and 13. So Mike you might want to look under your C8 on each side where the cross member joins the frame rail...... feel for a rivet head holding the reinforcement.

Alex..... on the cut out rear angle iron that joins the roof to the cab...... I have only seen these on cab 12...... and the holes are also drilled differently to allow for the narrow ledge left. In my experience and long legs when the cab 11 seats is fully pushed back...... and not using wooden spacer blocks between the seat bracket/tubes and the floor ( again to accommodate my long frame) the upper part of the seat back actually slips below the angle iron and your poor aching back actually hits the angle iron. I suspect that was not the only one complaining even back then so all later cab 12 models have that modification done at the factory to gain a few precious centimeters.

Cab 11 did not have the door retaining straps that were later introduced on the cab 12 and retro fitted to most cab 11 in service. There are numerous pictures of early cab 11 on parade squares that have the front doors opened and pinned back against the cargo box...... I would assume that in certain circumstances may have been tied open and driven as such....... once you realize how difficult it is to enter and leave the cab 11.... and wearing full gear you would want to do what they did on North Africa and loose the doors permanently.

Some sergeant must have been tired of having trucks with dented doors as they hit the rear cargo box and complained so straps were installed.

The famous front door hooks......... again early cab 11 did not have them installed at the factory but it soon became very obvious that the cab would get very HOT driving at slow speed during Summer months...... and since they had installed restraining straps and could not fold the door backward some wise guy decided that driving with the "door ajar" ( as my computer controlled car tells me) did allow for significant air flow in the cab. Early cab 11 were often retro fitted and they usually drilled two additional holes in the cowl to hold the long arm of the door hook. On most later cab 12 the hooks were installed at the factory and existing bolt holes were used to accommodate them without drilling more holes.

Early cba 11 did not have a fuel filter bolted to the inside of the frame under the driver's seat and the frame was not drilled at the factory for such a fitting.
Most vehicles in service were retrofitted.

I have never seen, on C15a cab 11 or 12, a reinforcement bracket fitted to the steering tube just before the steering box as seen on later cab 13 although there is a service bulletin for retro fitting....... note that my experience is limited to C15a and cannot attest to the larger C30 or C60 cab 12..... maybe Phil can chip in on this one.

As I said before the trucks found here in Canada where used locally only were not as updated as the Overseas active service vehicles. Most of the cab 11 and 12 were used for training purposes and for the most part considered obsolete once the cab 13 became readily available. Surely there are exceptions and for some parade or public appearance some trucks may have been tricked up to look more war time but the majority were used mainly for training or as a base runabout.

Other signs of early production....... the oval cover of the fuel tank went from brass to a white pot metal and then disappeared with the cab 13. We even found, sand blasting, a solid brass rear shock mount..... the one that bolts on to the rear axle cover.....why brass?

All the rear lights observed were the rubberlite. Cab 11 in Canada were usually not fitted with blackout headlight covering...... both headlights had full lens.

All early cab 11 had rigid stamped steel mirror arms that were prone to bending or breaking are they were solidly mounted to the side of the cowl over the bottom section of the windshield. Later cab 12 had a special cast fitting that allowed a mirror arm to be mounted with flexibility at its bottom point.

Brake lines on the cab 11 come through the frame rail, suspended by a small coil spring to keep them out of arms way and down to the wheel brake cylinder...... a rather vulnerable set up that was later modified but I have some cab 12 that have the same set up...... so maybe the change did not occur until the later cab 13.

Final clue to the early models are the floor plates....early had the "dot and dash" pattern the later models had the more current diamond plate "dash and dash" patterns and this will extend to the running board step on the cab 11.

Anything else that needs to be added????

PS....... rifle brackets on cab 11 and 12 are shorter than the cab 13 due to different cab height.
Cheers

[Bob Carriere]

Here are two examples of the crossmembers.

Mike I would suspect that your early cab 11 C8 has the NON reinforced version.

RichCam..... you might want to check your truck to see if you have the early model and to make sure they are not broken.

[Bob Carriere]

Early C8 with no air vent intake......noticed bumper is rolled steel and not U channel like the later cab 11 C15a. Noticed riveted license plate location....... and the inevitable Ford woven wire mesh rad cover as found on most early Chevs.

Rather unmolested early C8 dash set up....... and no hooks for the doors.

This C8 is totally rusted and clapped out.

[Bob Carriere]

Alex

Cab 11 cabs proved to be weak in such that driven without a roof there was little to beef up the support of the rear cab wall. On the cab 12 they added a half inch thick plate in the curved corner area under the existing floor plate that greatly stiffens the back wall. That also necessitate replacing/modifying part of the wooden spacer under the floor plate and between the rear bracket for the running board step.

I found the improvement of value and since I had the spare plates/parts elected to install the reinforcements on my cab 11. The floor angle iron of the rear wall has longer bolts to attach everything together solidly. The plates are factory drilled for the wooden block of the rifle holder.

[Mike K]

Thanks Bob

A most informative write up !

The cab 11 here has the non-reinforced cross member so I had better keep an eye on it for any signs of cracks .


I know the cab 11 was probably up at Bandiana vehicle park at wars end . I found a soldiers service number and name scribbled on the dash VX65738 JS Hunter (tank gunner) . A letter was sent off to him at Ballarat . He replied saying his unit were at Bandiana waiting to be disbanded , 2/4th Armoured reg . He wrote, we were bored and sitting around getting up to no good . He indicated that he " vandalised" the C8 there.

[charlie fitton]

When is Jordan Baker gonna hop in?

[Jordan Baker]

Hop in about what?

[Alex van de Wetering]

Interesting stuff Bob! Thanks; the changes to the cross members and routing of the brake lines was certainly new to me.
I just checked and just like Mike's C8, my C8 also has the early crossmember, without the reinforcement.
The door hooks on my C8 certainly could have been done as a retro-fit or maybe by hand on the production line, as the inner two eyelets are postioned on different heights. The outer ones seem to be pretty much level.
The cutout in the cab rear wall on my truck was again presumably done retro-fit, or done in production when switching to the new rear wall with cutouts.....as in my case the cutout interferes with the bolt holes, and new holes were drilled further towards the cab rear wall. (I mean the cut shows the remains of the original bolt holes)

To add to the discussion:
The january 1941 parts catalogue lists the "Hook, door hold open" for all CMP's in the series.
It lists the "strap door check" with the comment "British Army Only"
The grille is listed with a Ford as well as a Chev part number; I think the diagonal "Chev" mesh didn't appear before cab 12 introduction(?).
The "reinforcement, floor plate corner" is also listed for all CMP's in the series.

Regarding the central dash light...my conclusion is a bit different; I think they were fitted to cab 11 C8's and at least some Cab 11 C15's. Cab 12 C8's didn't seem to have them fitted.
I think I can see the remains of the dash light on the C8 in your picture in the very centre of the dash. The hole for the vacuum line for the wipers is positioned on top of the angle iron.

In my opinion not all trucks that went overseas were fitted with front fender marker lights.....rear axle lamp maybe, but not the front marker lights. There are several pictures around of Cab11/12 trucks in the UK, Italian campaign and even Holland without any fender marker lights. (two pictures attached from the "early CMP's in NW Europe thread").

Another subject of interest to C8 owners....early C8's had only one set of Rubbolite lamps at the rear...while later ones had lights both left and right.

Alex

1428914486.jpg
Source: http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/at...8&d=1428914486

The_British_Army_in_North-west_Europe_1944-45_B13120.jpg
Source: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-45_B13120.jpg

[Bob Carriere]

.....of cab 12 larger trucks without the fender lights.... as they could have been retro fitted very easily in forward service area...... but it does have one balck out headlight.

On the cut outs....... all the angle iron I have are neatly cut and the holes drilled near the rear half very neatly as a factory installation...... nothing could have prevented a field modification with torches for the greater comfort of the driver/passenger.

Mike on the early weak rear engine mount cross member they are identical to all CAB 13 and will bolt right in with grade 8 bolts.....mine was salvaged from a C60 frame and has the connection for the power brake booster on the right handside.....also transplanted the front cross member with one that was not rust out.

I jokingly refer to my truck as a cab 11 version 11.02 w/w as I used the best parts from cab 11 and cab 12 in the reassembly and this includes the C60 winch and fair leads previously very neatly transplanted by the previous owner.

Cheers

[Alex van de Wetering]

nothing could have prevented a field modification with torches for the greater comfort of the driver/passenger.

I agree. Attached are two pictures of my cab rear wall.....not the best pictures, but the best I have at the moment. I only just noticed the crudely done cutout is only on the drivers side!
I have to come back to my earlier suggestion that this could have been done on the production line before the new rear walls with preformed cutcouts came available...after looking at the pictures again it seems more likely this was a field mod....or even a post-war mod.

While on the subject of field mods....is there any evidence of cab 12 bonnets, grills and front sheet metal being transferred to cab 11's?? I can imagine that would have made service of the engine far easier.

Alex

[RichCam]

I got the C8 off of the trailer and into a bay at my shop. I've jacked it up and it is now securely off of the ground. I will put a couple of big hardwood blocks underneath, just in case.

Bob - I got looking at your pictures and I see that my cross member is opposite to yours? Did mine get taken out and welded back in - upside down? I don't have a reference because my C15A Cab12 is a different frame.

Yes - this Cab11 has a central dash light under the centre pillar. I will post pictures of the dash and cab - once I get all the crap cleaned out. As you can see, I'm applying lots of M16 to every bolt/nut/exposed thread that I can see.

I have the original licence plates - looks like the last time this C8 was on the road legally was 1958.

[Bob Carriere]

Richard

I think that would be impossible.... the cross member I am talking about is directly behind/underneath the bell housing...... bell housing bolt to that crossmember.

Are you mistaking it for the visible crossmember immediately behind the cab in your pictures????

These little C8 are really cute.

Unless my memory is wrong there was one in Ottawa at a Shell service station in the mid sixties at Hogs Back...... with a small block Chev V8 .....and for some obscure reason I beleive that it may have been Les Fisher's dad or himself.

So when are you picking up the other one?????

Cheers

[Bob Carriere]

HI Richard

I acquired a 1937 Chev one ton pickup frame a while back ....some interesting comparison can be made.....

The front picture shows which cross member I am talking about....

The second from the rear.... I have outline what I think is the same frame cross member from your picture.......... can you tell me how similar the rear spring hangers appear to your eye....? how about the front axle/frame set up.

The 37 Chev 1/2 ton pickup had a similar curved frame over the rear axle like a C8 but the one or 1 1/2 ton Chev had a flat rear frame.

I really need to take more close up of that frame from various angle for further comparison.

I always though it would be possible to mock up an early pilot CMP model using that frame.......

Cheers