Farley Mowat's Stug

[David Herbert]

Actually James I totally agree with you. I was making a different point altogether !

David

[David Dunlop]

I suppose any given military mirrors the society it is part of. If that society has little regard for old things and a ‘disposable’ mindset, we should not be surprised when old things get targeted for destruction on a range somewhere.

What has always struck me odd, however, with anti-armour weapons, is that they always get tested against armour technology that is 30 or more years older than the weapon being tested. And then everyone gets excited about how nicely the armour gets blown to bits. There is something innately wrong with that. If you have just developed and built a new antitank weapon today, why don’t you test it against a brand new Abrahams? Transportation Safety Boards do testing to destruction with brand new vehicles each year and has anyone looked at the average price for a brand new pickup truck these days?

David

[Niels V]

David
I think there is a difference, between testing Anti tank weapons during development and the training of troops in the use of anti tank weapons.

During development the weapons are test on the intended adversary, but these test are not for the public eye, (sometimes promotion videos are shown afterwards). I have passed by one development test once during my service time, It was very hush hush and held in the furthest part of the training grounds and everything covered up.

Training of troops in the use of the weapon, does not require much of the target, though it is helps with the recognition, if the target is the material used by adversary or the shape of a tank etc.
But any old tank will do, and normally they are bit more robust, and will take the beating better than a plain steel plate.
Furthermore there is nothing more annoying, than having to stop in the middle of a firing exercise, and then go out and repair the target plate, because some penetrated it and hit the structure holding it.

[Perry Kitson]

So was perhaps the wartime Jagdpanzer IV traded to the Germans for the Kanonenjadgpanzer 90 that sits as a gate guard now, or a least the last time I was out there.

As a note of consolation, the Stug is in great hands, receiving the kind of restoration and care it deserves.

I guess having a military that a few years ago deemed the modern tank as useless, and not being too particular about preserving it's own historical vehicles, it is not surprising that they would care little about properly preserving our former enemies armour.

[jdmcm]

I couldn't agree more about the Stug's new UK home...The Weald Foundation is an incredible group with a keen attention to detail and history that is not found in many places these days..plus they make a point of keeping these vehicles in the public eye...very commendable. But I still can't help but feel some sadness and perhaps better said, frustration that this is what it has come to for us here in Canada, that our historical vehicles end up getting more attention and better treatment in another country...this wasn't "just a Stug" as rare as they have become...it was one part of a uniquely Canadian tale involving truly Canadian characters, its loss is a big deal. As I have said before, once all the veterans of these conflicts are gone it is only the artifacts that are tangible links to our history...and if we don't respect those, then what do we have?

[ajmac]

I don't know if anyone saw the post I made a few days ago about the second largest national MV collection in England being marked for closure. The Tank museum will take some items to fill gaps in its collection i'd imagine but the majority will get sold off.

All museums make judgement calls which can be seen as questionable, the Tank Museum scrapped a number of unique vehicles which had been recovered from ranges. Also look at all the German kit they they gave back to Germany in the 1960s, so many vehicles that would bolster the collection today...just given away.

I guess when it comes to the army we must remember that they are a modern fighting force and a modern set of vehicles dotted around the camp is much more relevant than some 70 year old curiosities.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Perry Kitson

So was perhaps the wartime Jagdpanzer IV was traded to the Germans for the Kanonenjadgpanzer 90 that sits as a gate guard now, or a least the last time I was out there.

The Kanonenjadgpanzer sat outside that gate for a long long time, then was moved down to range control where it sat for a bunch more years. When they didn't want it anymore, Clive (the artifacts manager) went to range control with a couple Jerry cans of diesel and a slave cable, started it up, and drove it back to the museum collections storage building, where I work.

Unfortunately the vehicle had been left with it's hull plugs in, so the hull became a rain gauge. Fortunately, it doesn't rain that much in Shilo, but it does freeze. The water (and freezing) buggered up the alternator, along with some wiring at a low lying junction box. Around the time I started at the museum, the pack was pulled, and the engine compartment re-painted in an epoxy white. The Bosch part number for the alternator looked kind of familiar. It turns out Bosch uses the German NSN for a part number. That NSN led to nowhere, however one digit out was the Leopard1 alternator. A call to Ottawa got permission for us to order one (by the time supply finished we ended up with three) and the $7,000 alternator was installed. However the problem we are currently faced with is that the pack weighs more than the current CF wrecker can safely lift within the confines of this building, so one of these days (possibly in August) I need to pull the vehicle outside and get transport's crane here to do the lift and installation. We almost got the engine in about 2 years back, but broke a coolant fitting while lowering it.

Can't say when, as it is not a priority, but the Kanonenjadgpanzer will run again.

[Colin Alford]

For the past year I have been heavily engaged in a research project attempting to determine exactly which enemy vehicles came to Canada at the end of WW2, their movements within Canada and their current location.

I have read many thousands of pages of archived documents and have a pretty good grasp of what came to Canada and the initial movements. Recently I have been provided Doug Knight’s findings from his research into this matter that was conducted a few years ago and our findings are essentially the same. There is currently a large gap in the records from the late 1940s into the 1950s. Research is ongoing to attempt to locate records to fill this gap.

My understanding of the movements of the MOWAT StuG is that it travelled aboard the S.S. Blommersdyk (or Blommersdijk) from Antwerp and arrived in Montreal in mid-Nov 1945. It was then consigned to Central Ordnance Depot, Plouffe Park, Ottawa, Ont. The foreign vehicles and equipment were controlled by the Foreign Material Section of the Directorate of Development of A and B Vehicles and Small Arms (DVSA), which was subordinate to the Army Technical Development Board (ATDB). The foreign vehicles and large pieces of equipment were being stored at “Pete’s Garage” in Hull which appears to have been a commercial establishment. At approximately the same time that this shipment took place, the Army had decided that the vehicles would soon be stored in Camp Borden. By 15 March 1946, the StuG was present in Camp Borden and stored in a building controlled by A-33 Canadian Armoured Corps Training Establishment. Unfortunately the Foreign Material Section files that have been located end in the summer of 1946 approximately when their higher formation changed. ATDB and DVSA were disbanded/reorganized and the Foreign Material Section now reported to the newly-created Directorate of Vehicle Development.

A brief submitted by the Canadian War Museum Board to the Royal Commission on National Development in the Arts, Letters and Sciences in July 1949 stated that “…there remains at Camp Borden a large number of German tanks and artillery pieces which could be made available if accommodation could be provided.”

While there is no inventory attached to this brief, it appears that the foreign vehicle collection was still intact at that time.

The next piece of dated evidence is the picture of MOWAT’s StuG attached above. If the date is correct then by August 1956, the collection had been dispersed with at least the StuG and JagdPanzer IV located in Shilo.

So the locations for this StuG appear to be: Assigned to the defense of Amsterdam, recovered from the Germans after surrender by the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada, 1 Cdn War Museum Collection Team (1945), Antwerp (briefly in 1945), Montreal (briefly in 1945), Ottawa/Hull (late 1945 – early 1946), Borden (early 1946 - ?), Shilo (unknown dates, but present in 1956), Calgary (unknown dates), Dr William Gregg (as related by Stew in March of this year), Fred Ropkey (spelling?), then see the link James P provided in post 23 for subsequent movements.

The date I am personally most interested in determining is when and why the decision was made to disperse the collection from Borden. Finding documents from this date may help to determine the whereabouts of the missing vehicles.

For the Jagdpanzer IV, the chain of movements is similar. It was captured by 4 Cdn Armd Div near Wilhelmshaven, travelled aboard the S.S. Grafton Park to West St. John, travelled by rail direct to Borden (late 1945), Shilo (sometime prior to Aug 1956) and then ended up at the Canadian War Museum.

I currently have no evidence regarding any other WW2 German vehicles that were present in Shilo, I wonder if the Jagdpanzer IVs move to the CWM coincided with the arrival of the Kanonenjagdpanzer 90 and there may have been assumptions made about a trade?

Colin

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

I wonder if the Jagdpanzer IVs move to the CWM coincided with the arrival of the Kanonenjagdpanzer 90 and there may have been assumptions made about a trade?

Colin

Colin

Very likely....as you saw on my earlier list of "assumptions", there were more stories than there were vehicles.

The German army also left us a Leopard 1 here in Shilo. They were very generous to the base when they were here, and their absence was certainly noticed.