Leopard 1 Driver Training Cabs in Canada

[Mike Cecil]

Gents,

In Michael McNorgan's 'The Leopard in Canadian Service', there are a couple of images of the Driver Training Cab on Canadian Leopard C1 tanks, but nowhere in the book (or elsewhere for that matter) can I find the total number of Driver Training Cabs purchased/acquired by Canada.

Can any of our Canadian members enlighten me, please?

Thanks

Mike

[Ed Storey]

My records show ECC 116102 Leopard C1 modified to accept Drivers Training Cab - in 1995, Canada held 37.

[Robin Craig]

Ed,

Interesting that it is such a high number. I am, for my sins active on a FB group that believe it is a smaller number, all ex armoured corps types. Their anecdotal numbers peg at around 8 or less.

Their suggestion was that the number of greenhouses matched the number of turrets on the indoor miniature range as the hulls that gave up their turrets were the ones converted with the greenhouses.

This is interesting.

[Ed Storey]

To be honest so was I, although the list shows CFB Gagetown alone having 13.

[James P]

Something seems WAY off with the numbers, I never saw 13 cabs in Gagetown in the Armour School. Six seems to be the number stuck in my head, a regular gun tank would see the turret removed and used as a turret in the Indoor Miniature Range and the hull get cabbed. As for holding 37 cabs in the supply system , wow, that is a crazy number as Canada just plain did not buy all that many tanks to justify that number of trainer cabs. But that said the CF procurement system is a sick joke so who knows..........

[Grant Bowker]

Did the modification to accept the training cab in any way limit the use of the tank in the normal role with the turret? If the (modified) base tank hull was equally usable with either training cab or turret, it is possible that in a burst of enthusiasm it was decided to modify several times as many hulls as there were training cabs so that it would only be necessary to ship the driver training cab and not the entire tank to train in different locations.
This suggestion is made without any actual knowledge of the driver training adaptation of the Leopard to offer a possible explanation of what otherwise sounds illogical.

[Ed Storey]

I must admit to be baffled (more than normal) by the numbers. It is a known fact that Canada bought 127 Leopard 1A3s (C1) in 1978 yet the 1992 holding list only shows 114 with 77 being MBTs. So this leaves 13 accounted for yet by 1996 it is reported that the 114 C1s will be upgraded to C2.

Could there have been 13 parts and spares vehicles?

Leopard Holdings – 22 October, 1992

ECC 116101 Leopard C1 77

ECC 116102 Leopard C1 modified to accept Drivers Training Cab 37

Total Leopard C1 114

Here is a 1981 photo of a C1 with the Driver Training Cab.

[Robin Craig]

I suspect that the tanks and turrets and greenhouses have been cycled through a number of tanks during their life as a way to even out maintenance and wear.

If there was a way to account for the CFR of the tanks involved and see what maintenance / conversions was done then we would have our evidence.

To me that seems the only plausible way to explain the numbers.

What say others?

[James P]

Originally Posted by Grant Bowker

Did the modification to accept the training cab in any way limit the use of the tank in the normal role with the turret? If the (modified) base tank hull was equally usable with either training cab or turret, it is possible that in a burst of enthusiasm it was decided to modify several times as many hulls as there were training cabs so that it would only be necessary to ship the driver training cab and not the entire tank to train in different locations.
This suggestion is made without any actual knowledge of the driver training adaptation of the Leopard to offer a possible explanation of what otherwise sounds illogical.

Sorry for not really understanding your question but swapping out a turret for a cab is not going to call for "modifying" the hull and just made for a lot of work for old Bluebell. Pretty much a plug and play swap. I could be wrong but up to the mid 1990s the only folks with a cabbed tank(s) was/where the Armour School at Gagetown, post mid 90s maybe they (CF) moved a cab tank around but I doubt it. Mileages where always something that was watched and accounted for, the D&M tanks would obviously have more then the Gunnery Sqn tanks that lived a more pampered life.

[Ed Storey]

I agree, so lets say for arguments sake that DND only has 6 cabs and they are getting popped on and off tanks as required; then why would the numbers being reported not record 108 MBTs and 6 Trainers? Or even 114 MBTs and 6cabs for that matter (although the cabs don't have their own ECC)?

Running a check through each Leopard C1 record could reveal which tanks were used as trainers but this number may turn out to be 37.

Now which Ottawa landfill contains DNDs legacy Leopard files?

[Mike Cecil]

Gents, an interesting discussion, and I'm glad I'm not the only one puzzled by the numbers!

Thanks for the input. 6 or 8 sounds reasonable (6 sounds more reasonable than 8 given the number of tanks on the inventory.

Nice pic of the cab equipped C1, Ed.

Mike

[James P]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I agree, so lets say for arguments sake that DND only has 6 cabs and they are getting popped on and off tanks as required; then why would the numbers being reported not record 108 MBTs and 6 Trainers? Or even 114 MBTs and 6cabs for that matter (although the cabs don't have their own ECC)?

Running a check through each Leopard C1 record could reveal which tanks were used as trainers but this number may turn out to be 37.

Now which Ottawa landfill contains DNDs legacy Leopard files?

Simple. A gun tank is a gun tank regardless if it has a turret, or had that removed and replaced with a cab and set up to drive from the cab (which is a pretty cool experience). The cab kit was not a vehicle nor a weapon system. Good point about the number 37 and maybe that being the number of tanks in the CF inventory that had worn the cab at some point to spread the mileages across the fleet.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

It is a known fact that Canada bought 127 Leopard 1A3s (C1) in 1978...

Ed, first off, great photo. Second, I don't know how to say this, but Canada did not purchase 127 Leopard C1's in 1978. What Canada purchased were 114 gun tanks (the C1), eight Leopard ARV's and six Leopard AVLB's, for a total of 128 Leopard AFV's.

Of these, 77 C1's, five ARV's and four AVLB's were kept in Germany, for a total of 86. 37 C1's, three ARV's and two AVLB's, for a total of 42, were sent to Canada. Deliveries began in August 1978 and were completed during July 1979.

These figures fit perfectly with your 1992 figures. The 37 C1's in Canada were the ones modified to take the cab. The 77 C1's in Germany were not. The 14 (not 13) unaccounted for vehicles were the ARV's and AVLB's.

Cheers,
Dan.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Dan Martel

Ed, first off, great photo. Second, I don't know how to say this, but Canada did not purchase 127 Leopard C1's in 1978. What Canada purchased were 114 gun tanks (the C1), eight Leopard ARV's and six Leopard AVLB's, for a total of 128 Leopard AFV's.

Of these, 77 C1's, five ARV's and four AVLB's were kept in Germany, for a total of 86. 37 C1's, three ARV's and two AVLB's, for a total of 42, were sent to Canada. Deliveries began in August 1978 and were completed during July 1979.

These figures fit perfectly with your 1992 figures. The 37 C1's in Canada were the ones modified to take the cab. The 77 C1's in Germany were not. The 14 (not 13) unaccounted for vehicles were the ARV's and AVLB's.

Cheers,
Dan.

I don't buy the "37 c1s in Canada were modified to take the cab". As a young reservist armoured, I was attached to the flyover squadron in 1980. There was a whole squadron of leos (along with one ARV) in Gagetown that mirrored those in Germany. Those tanks were regular C1s, and not modified in any way that I could see. Then there was the half dozen or so that had the training cab.

There were also a couple Leopards and an ARV hiding in Borden for trades training. I recall the leopards coming out to pester us during our field portion of trades training in 81 whilst in Borden.....the two or three all had turrets.

Although I really liked the armoured, my time in Gagetown was what prompted me to go into the regular force as a mechanic. We were under severe budgetary and mileage restraints on the tanks, and it was almost like being unemplyed most of the time. Yet when I looked over at the mechanics and the welder, they never seemed to have to worry about finding work....there was always plenty of it. So I joined up as a veh tech, and for the next 23 years also never had to look for work. Still don't.

[Ed Storey]

I like the 114 gun tank number as it is supported by the 1980 C-30-731-000/MA-000 Data Summary which gives the same number. I take it DND must have regularly shuffled the vehicle numbers as my 1992 report has CFE holding 44 Leopard C1s and Canada 33. The remaining 37 (all in Canada) are listed as modified to accept driver's training cab which could possibly be a broad-brush number for vehicles which at one time may have had the cab fitted. Again, if this is the case then why not report them as C1 MBTs?

So how many of the driver training cabs did we buy/rent and what was their NATO stock number?

Interesting numbers game on a 40 year-old vehicle type.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by rob love

I don't buy the "37 c1s in Canada were modified to take the cab". There was a whole squadron of leos (along with one ARV) in Gagetown that mirrored those in Germany. Those tanks were regular C1s, and not modified in any way that I could see. Then there was the half dozen or so that had the training cab.

Rob, neither Ed or myself is saying that there were 37 C1's fitted with a training cab. What we're saying is that 37 C1's were modified to be able to be fitted with a training cab. If only six training cabs existed (as seems to be the case), then they could be fitted to any one of the 37 C1 hulls in rotation.

I saw a training cab once, at a military show in Oshawa about 10 years ago. It was in the hands of a private owner. Didn't take a photo of it. Without a tank under it, it didn't seem like much. To me, anyway.

Cheers,
Dan.

[James P]

I am in with Rob that there was NOT 37 gun tanks made into cab tanks, and cannot see the CF buying 37 cab tank kits. Like really, 1/3 of the gun tanks being made into D&M cabs makes zero sense. If that was the case where would 37 turrets end up ? Now my memory may not be what it was but six was the number I can recall up to the mid 90s at the School and I doubt there was 31 cab kits held in stores, and as Rob points out there where zero cab tanks in Germany.
Further on this the cab portion when installed on a C1 hull allowed the driver instructor (in the cab) to override the driver in the hull. I hate assuming anything but the cab kit would have everything for the swap and I cannot see any need to "modify" a gun tank hull for steering/shifting/braking.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I take it DND must have regularly shuffled the vehicle numbers as my 1992 report has CFE holding 44 Leopard C1s and Canada 33.

I don't think it has to do with shuffling the numbers so much as by October 1992 the brigade group in Germany had less than a year to go before it shut down completely. I don't know how many Leopard AFV's Canada shipped from Germany after peace broke out, but the Canadian Army surely wouldn't have needed 114 C1's domestically. Maybe it disposed of / sold the 44 left behind.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Ed Storey]

The 114 Leopard C1s were upgraded in 1996 to C2 status, but only 66 were so modified. Some C2s were sold or used as targets in 2003 when at that time there was a move to replace them with the M1128 Stryker Mobile Gun System (MGS). The MGS plan was cancelled in 2006 and that same year a Squadron of MEXAS armoured C2s (15 + 2 spares) were sent to Afghanistan; and in 2007 the CF invested in Leopard 2A4 and 2A6 tanks. The Leopard C2s were parked for good this spring are now up for disposal.

Here is a photo of a Canadian Leopard C2 I took while in Kandahar in 2011.

[rob love]

Interesting story I got on the turrets purchased to upgrade the tanks in the 90s. This came from an acquaintance who left Shilo to take on the LCMM position in Ottawa. They bought the turrets for $15K each, and paid a 10K deposit on the hulls on which the turrets sat. Once the tanks reached Canada, the turrets were stripped to upgrade our tanks. But once they looked at the costs to send the hulls back to Germany, it was decided to forfeit the deposit and just keep the chassis here for cannibalization. It was around then that the old turrets started showing up for targets, as did stripped out hulls. Here in Shilo, the ones that showed up were used as range markers as opposed to hard targets.

[Colin Alford]

Gents,

I can't answer the initial question but here is some info which may help resolve some of the additional discussion.

NSN for Driver Training Cabin: 2350-12-174-6597

Applicable Publications:

NDID CD ENGLISH TITLE Date
C-11-206-000/ME-000 DRIVER TRAINING CABIN LEOPARD C1 MBT INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS 08/08/1980
C-11-206-000/MF-000 SERVICING AND MAINTENANCE 08/08/1978
C-11-206-000/MF-001 EQUIPEMENT D'INSTRUCTION (French Only) 08/08/1978
C-11-206-000/MY-001 LEOPARD C1 - ILLUSTRATED PARTS LIST FOR DRIVER TRAINING CABIN 06/10/1997
L-11-206-000/LS-001 TANK, TRAINING AID, INSTRUCTIONAL CABIN TANK SK 221-000000-000-0 (LEOPARD C1)

I looked through the installation instructions and I must admit that I am having trouble following them as the text is in English but the drawings have poor resolution and are in German. It appears that there were modifications required to the existing accelerator and brake pedal assemblies to allow the linkages from the cabin controls to connect to them. There may also have been some work done on the floor of the hull to provide mounting points for elements of the installation kit.

Colin

[Ed Storey]

That is great information, thank you. If there were any modifications done to the donor hull to accept the cabin then that would explain why those vehicles would be accounted for separately and given a new ECC and NSN.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi



Wonder if this could have been one of the turrets removed, picture taken 1984 at Camp Bordon Link to high res version on photo http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/R...0CMP%20185.jpg





Cheers Phil

[James P]

Borden is the home of the trades schools and held a couple tanks for mechs and techs to be trained on. The turret stand looks the same as the stands for the Gunnery Sqn turrets at Gagetown, as the (cabbed) hulls spend there days wallowing up and down the various bowling alleys there. That is a pretty good picture showing something sort of out of the usual BTW.

[Robin Craig]

Mr Fred Appel who is on the FB group for the RCEME has posted the following on the subject today which sounds like confirmation in some way:-

" If my memory serves me right, Canada purchased 5 of these Driver Training Cabs. 4 for Gagetown and 1 for CFSEME. The were installed on the Leopard Chassis after the turret was removed. The installation was conducted by unit personnel with the supervision of the Krauss Maffei FSR. The Driver Training Cabs were stationary, they did not traverse. The barrel was a dummy but simulated the barrel being present to the driver. The Crew Commander had full override controls over the driver."

[Ed Storey]

This reaffirms Gord's figure of six Driver Training Cabins way back in post #5 so what is really needed now is a document which confirms this number.

[strat1]

July 1978 ,9 Leopard C1’s issued to Royal Canadian Armoured School. They were divided between Gunnery and Driving and Maintenance squadrons. The turrets were taken off, placed on turret stands, the hulls were fitted with an Instructors cabin for driving training.

More might have been purchased, but no records show this, or the number of 37 cabins. To convert a gun tank to driver instructor was a plug and play affair with quick disconnects.

23 Leo 1 hulls were sold off, all were to be de-milled with armour sections taken out of upper/lower front hull areas. a few have made it back to Canada , the Ontario Regiment Museum bought 2 which were movie props, the vismod movie turrets have been taken off, and vismod C1 looking turrets added, but they used the CFB Borden German Leo 1A4 for measurements to build the new turrets, so they are actually 1A4's, not our 1A3 turret versions.

Cheers

Anthony

[Ed Storey]

So this leads back to why in 1992 was DND reporting that it had 37 Driver Training C1 tanks?

[James P]

Hi Strat1 I did not see that odd shaped home made turret in Oshawa in June. They mocked up a couple very, very, nice looking C1 turrets.

[Ed Storey]

Where the turret stands the Turret Training Leopard C1? If so, the Data Summary C-11-220-000/MA-000 from 1984 lists a quantity of 5.