Pale blue tactical markings for armoured car regiments?

[Jack Geratic]

I've come across this info form the war diary of 5th Armd Div. dated January 1942.
http://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/oo...52/964?r=0&s=4



At that time, it's composition included the 1st Armoured Car Regiment (The Royal Canadian Dragoons). With reorganization in 1943, they became a I Canadian Corps asset.

So many questions, but obvious one - would the pale blue tactical colour still be in use during 1944-45? Is there any seniority between the two Dragoon car units, such that RCD would have red tactical signs, and yellow for the Manitoba Dragoons?

How about the Reconnaissance Regiments assigned individually to the three Infantry Divisions:
https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/tac...ceregiment.htm



Colour for tactical markings - pale blue, seniority colours, or white??

Back to the Manitoba Dragoons, they seem to have the best photo samples, and studying them gives an impression that the tactical marking was anything but white. In fact, sometimes even the vehicle census number is dark:





regards,
Jack

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

The seniority colours were for armoured regiments in brigades. Armoured car regiments attached to the higher formation (division, corps) were supposed to be white. However by your document and other evidence these were often light blue.

[Mike Cecil]

What's the object just above the wing mirror on the right side of the image, please? Seems to be attached to the Staghound, but can't make out what it is.

Nice images: interesting turret basket construction: was this standard for this unit, or did each crew do their own thing?

Mike

[Jack Geratic]

Bruce, thanks for that - least now I know there is a possibility not all tactical markings were white. I considered yellow due to how similar in shade it appears to the bridge symbol in some photos:



-------------------------

Mike, not sure about your first question, but the object attached to the Staghound is a section of an assault ramp (bridge). The 'sergeant's car' for each troop would carry a pair these. More info here:
http://www.12mbdragoons.com/stag04.html

regards,
Jack

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I know it's art and therefore subject to artistic licence, but it was painted in theater and every other detail is 100% accurate so I can't see why the blue squadron symbol would be misrepresented.

[Jack Geratic]

I would consider artwork as good as colour photos, so yes definitely some sort of light blue - though the sample here is strong in hue.

On the topic of markings, something I've noticed on the period b/w pictures is the II Corps formation sign has a coloured outline around the blue diamond, perhaps gold like the leaf? Something like this:




regards,
Jack

[Mike Cecil]

Thanks Jack, that answer's it nicely.

Mike

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Jack Geratic

I would consider artwork as good as colour photos, so yes definitely some sort of light blue - though the sample here is strong in hue.

On the topic of markings, something I've noticed on the period b/w pictures is the II Corps formation sign has a coloured outline around the blue diamond, perhaps gold like the leaf? Something like this:

regards,
Jack

I can't say I've ever seen that, but then again I can't say I've ever looked for it. Do you have an example? There are two varieties of the 1st Corps sign: one as shown where the red lozenge merges with the upper and lower red bars, and one where the lozenge has a white outline where it intersects the upper and lower bars.

One more thing on the Hugh's painting. It accurately depicts a Royal Canadian Dragoons A Squadron Fox but what is missing is the yellow bridge class sign that should be on the right side front armour just below the mirror arm. This puzzled me until I was sent this photograph of a Royal Canadian Dragoons D Squadron Fox that has the bridge class sign under the right fender. Bingo!!! Even better it confirms the use of the black "47" unit sign which was a carryover from when the RCD were attached to the 5th Canadian Armoured Division and before they began using the more common green/blue "44" seen later.

[Jack Geratic]

Maybe a third version of I Corps, as this example has a coloured surround on a Lynx belonging to RCD:



The above may have influenced what I perceive to be seeing on the II Corps. The second photo linked in the initial post starting this thread might be something, or just shadow or even garbled pixels.

Another possible photo is this one, just seems to be a lighter line separating the diamond from the horizontal red bars:



regards,
Jack

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Jack Geratic

Maybe a third version of I Corps, as this example has a coloured surround on a Lynx belonging to RCD:

The above may have influenced what I perceive to be seeing on the II Corps. The second photo linked in the initial post starting this thread might be something, or just shadow or even garbled pixels.

Another possible photo is this one, just seems to be a lighter line separating the diamond from the horizontal red bars:


regards,
Jack

Certainly food for thought. The Lynx 1st Corps sign could well be my second variety of a white surround imposing into the top and bottom bars. The green over blue "44" with the top white corps band is fantastic.

It's hard to make out the bottom pic as conclusive to a strip around the blue 2nd Corps lozenge.....NEED MORE PICS!!!


And the V laport aerial on the Stag turret roof to a sigs guy is magnificent!!!

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Thanks Jack, that answer's it nicely.

Mike

Share...what is that thing strapped to the left side of that Staghound?

[Jack Geratic]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

Share...what is that thing strapped to the left side of that Staghound?

The answer was in post #4 ... bridging equipment located on both sides of the vehicle.



regards,
Jack

[Rob McCue]

While restoring the SAR Halftrack we had the same confusion, Orders staes markings were to be in white , but the photographic evidence did not support white.

I found the attached in the Regimental War diary, stating all markings were to be reduced in size, "painted white and covered in green."

I assume an overwash of green to dull the white numbers/symbols, and thats why they do not appear as white in the photos.

[Jack Geratic]

Rob, thanks for adding that. I find it really interesting, and certainly would explain the examples of the off white War Department numbers.

regards,
Jack

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Rob McCue

While restoring the SAR Halftrack we had the same confusion, Orders staes markings were to be in white , but the photographic evidence did not support white.

I found the attached in the Regimental War diary, stating all markings were to be reduced in size, "painted white and covered in green."

I assume an overwash of green to dull the white numbers/symbols, and thats why they do not appear as white in the photos.

In that cryptic military language, the meaning of 'covered in green' can only be guessed at. You're probably right and photos tend to agree, but I wish they had used unambiguous language. My understanding of the 4th Armoured Division is that they drove ashore in France decked out 'by the book' and had a hard and fast learning curve to ditch all that.

[Jordan Baker]

I found these last night while searching the archives. Its not so much to do with the pale blue or green washed white. However I believe it covers off the tactical markings for 12th Manitoba Dragoons.

[Jordan Baker]

and the rest of them

[Jack Geratic]

Jordan, nice find on the vehicle allocation for the Canadian Armoured Car Regiment. What type of vehicle is HUP? It's the 2nd last one listed in their legend symbols.

regards,
Jack

[Mike Cecil]

Heavy Utility Personnel.

An 8cwt Chev CMP C8A

Mike

[marco]

Here is a HUP from the RCCS troop attached to the XII Manitoba Dragoons.
It is marked "AC4", meaning "IM Shop" according to the list.
The color of the marking here isn't white also.
I do not know what "IM" means. Anyone?
Photo made at the railway station in Leeuwarden in May or June 1945.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by marco

Here is a HUP from the RCCS troop attached to the XII Manitoba Dragoons.
It is marked "AC4", meaning "IM Shop" according to the list.
The color of the marking here isn't white also.
I do not know what "IM" means. Anyone?
Photo made at the railway station in Leeuwarden in May or June 1945.

Marco, what makes you think the markings aren't white? I'd argue with the resolution of that photo they could well be. The CZ number on the door was applied before the vehicle was issued so the 'green over' paint would have to be painstakingly applied to the number, or else you may expect to see some discolouration around it if applied to dull them. I also wonder if any such dulling would apply to these behind the scenes trucks. The 'pale green', to have any effect, would have to be somewhere near the same darkness as the yellow on the bridge class and yet the star, CZ number and bumper ends are quite a bit lighter. Dirty, blurry white?

[Jack Geratic]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Heavy Utility Personnel.

An 8cwt Chev CMP C8A

Mike

Thanks!

[Jack Geratic]

About the HUP and off white markings, could the poster be referring specifically to the AC4 on the front bumper? This might be the tactical marking for special role vehicle. As described at CanadianSoldiers, they were black with yellow writing:

'The signs were to measure 8 by 6 inches, be painted in black with a 5/8 inch yellow border, and have yellow characters measuring 3-1/2 inches by 2-1/2 inches.'

regards,
Jack

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by marco

Here is a HUP from the RCCS troop attached to the XII Manitoba Dragoons.
It is marked "AC4", meaning "IM Shop" according to the list.
I do not know what "IM" means. Anyone?
.

It's nice to see the photograph match Jordan's archive material on tactical markings. The "AC4" is indeed a 'HUP', but it's hard to say what kind. It may be a wireless version or a screened in machinery van. Because of where it is in the list and looking at the other types shown I would say (and it's just a guess) 'Instrument, Machinery Shop' which would be a machinery van equipped to fix radio or line equipment. I would have said 'incoming message shop' but that's too slang and not the language I've ever heard before in the Signal Corps. Beside, there is a signals office vehicle for that.

Last word on the green over white. The SAR war diary talks about tanks, so it may not have been applied to soft skins. And the green, having thought about it more, may have been 'dry brushed' or lightly dabbed over the white to apply just a little dulling the same olive 'green' as the vehicle colour.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Jack Geratic

The answer was in post #4 ... bridging equipment located on both sides of the vehicle.

See some more in Bridging Trays on Staghound Armoured Car.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

It's nice to see the photograph match Jordan's archive material on tactical markings. The "AC4" is indeed a 'HUP', but it's hard to say what kind. It may be a wireless version or a screened in machinery van. Because of where it is in the list and looking at the other types shown I would say (and it's just a guess) 'Instrument, Machinery Shop' which would be a machinery van equipped to fix radio or line equipment.

I'd suggest "Instrument Mechanic", for the AC4 vehicle, as that was a WW2-era Signals trade (later renamed to Radio Mechanic and then to Electronics Technician). It may not have been just Signals, as there would be optical equipment (gunsights and similar things) to be maintained and repaired, but for a small unit it would most likely have been Signals, for Wireless and Telephone/Telegraph equipment maintenance.

Chris.