Quebec Transport Ministry + MV owners

[Dave D.]

Do you fellas have a "travel bureau", AAA or travel agency that would recommend a travel route through Canada from West to East?

They are very helpful with giving away a free map and drawing a line on it to guide you to your destination. They give away brochures of all the places to see along the way. Some even offer reasonable travel insurance in case you're going into third world countries or traveling into unknown territory. Insurance can cover legal costs in some cases so that sounded like a good idea.

AMA offers towing services all across Canada and it's honoured in Quebec. As long as I have my card they say, we'll get you to a safe location. Diebert is safe.

Our agency is called AMA. The Alberta Motor Association.

I asked them to show me a route through Canada to my favorite publicly open Cold War bunker in Nova Scotia.

https://www.enterthebunker.com/exper...istoric-tours/

The route is through Quebec.

I asked if they could check if any of the vehicles on the unofficial list would not be allowed in Quebec.

AMA, "There is nothing on Quebec's website or media releases that say I can't visit Quebec in the vehicles listed".

I asked my AMA front-line girl Justine to check with a supervisor to ensure an Iltis, M923, LSVW or other "Military Vehicles" have no restrictions to travelers.

After a long pause, the reply is clear. "Any vehicle legally insured and registered in another Province or State is free to travel in Quebec."

I just started working on the legions to see if any of them on route have some decent parking and maybe even an overnight spot.

Here's a little list on the right side of the page.
http://www.qc.legion.ca/english/contact_us.html

The reactions we get from the veterans when we show up in old MV's all polished up for a parade is amazing. Often, it can only be equaled by the reaction we get from those currently serving.

Arranging some base visits for static displays so the current troops can look through the old gear is always fun.

Providing vehicles for Military Base events is a real treat so I think the place to begin arranging that is with the Defence Minister.
https://www.ourcommons.ca/Parliament...S-Sajjan(89497)

The Honourable Harjit S. Sajjan - Overview - House of Commons of Canada. Hill Office House of Commons Ottawa, Ontario Canada K1A 0A6 Telephone: 613-995-7052 Fax: 613-995-2962 Mail may be sent postage-free to any Member of Parliament.

I'm sure someone has already called him because he's responsible for a lot of these same vehicles. I know we're welcome on base so let's open the dialogue.

There are a pile of bases, places and spaces to visit in Quebec but I'm unfamiliar with the area.....and the weather this time of year.

I know you folks can't forecast the weather and with that hurricane pulling all kinds of tricks along the coast, what is the "best guess" at the weather over the next few months along the St Lawrence Seaway?

Does anyone have suggestions on iconic military related places to see through Quebec?

Onward

[Dave D.]

The radar is on folks. Looks like group A is meeting with the Quebec Transportation Minister.

The MV restriction issue needs to be resolved quickly and withdrawn without delay. With our thoughts on the people facing severe weather on the East coast and the loss of life we've already witnessed within the last few days, we need to focus elsewhere.

We'll watch for updates.

A big thanks to Adam for capturing this moment at one of Canada's Military sentry's.

[Terry Witiuk]

From a recent video post by Philippe Raymond on the Facebook Group RECOURS COLLECTIF SAAQ VEHICULES MILITAIRE, the MV owners group in Quebec have had their first meeting with government officials and possibly made some progress in having the new C plate changes reconsidered. Great News and good luck with their ongoing efforts to get this repealed or changed.

[Dave D.]

I haven't heard back from Tourism Quebec and time is clicking by.

If anyone has future plan to travel to Quebec in a Historical Vehicle that might have been used by the military at one time, Quebec Transport would still like to see it. They're not sure why they want to see it but they gave me a special email address where we can send pictures and dimensions of vehicles we may visit Quebec with.

A "ruling" to determine restrictions to Quebec residents is back in the Minister's hands after meeting with group eh. I don't see a timeline of when a ruling may be made. That doesn't help my travel plans so I'll need to paddle harder.

This seems like the right time to reinforce my desire to visit Quebec and a more complete list of vehicles I might use is on the way.

After again calling the toll free number 1-888-355-0511 pushing "9" for English and "3" for the right department, Joanna at Service put me in contact with Aida at the Transport department.

This is the email address Transport would like me to send questions and information about the vehicles that might visit Quebec.

Attention: François Bonnardel

communications@transports.gouv.qc.ca

Once again, the ladies on the phone were angels. Unfortunately, they do not have a fresh 'memo' and Aida at transport thought that SAAQ might be able to tell me more about the restrictions.

I explained how we landed on that shore once already and the final decision would be in the Transportation Minister's capable hands. She is looking forward to seeing the emails.

[Dave D.]

Responses like the reply from tourism are starting to cut into my travel plans. They didn't leave a toll free number but if it's a local number in Quebec, maybe the folks nearby can check to see if their friends can visit Quebec in their MV's.

Au nom de la ministre du Tourisme et députée de Berthier, Mme Caroline Proulx, j’accuse réception de votre message.
Votre communication sera portée à l’attention de la ministre qui en prendra connaissance avec intérêt.
Acceptez, je vous prie, l’expression de nos sentiments les meilleurs.

Sylvie Desrosiers
Adjointe administrative
Cabinet de la ministre
Ministère du Tourisme
Bureau 400
900, boulevard René-Lévesque Est
Québec (Québec) G1R 2B5

Tél. : 418 528-8063
www.tourisme.gouv.qc.ca

Rough Translation

On behalf of the Minister of Tourism and MP for Berthier, Ms. Caroline Proulx, I acknowledge receipt of your message.

Your communication will be brought to the attention of the Minister, who will take note of it with interest.

Accept, please, the expression of our best feelings.



Sylvie Desrosiers

Administrative assistant

Minister's Office

Ministry of Tourism

400 Office

900 René-Lévesque Boulevard East

Quebec City, Quebec G1R 2B5



Such. 418 528-8063

[Robin Craig]

Dave D,

Please understand that this issue is solely aimed at owners of vehicles resident in Quebec. If you reside outside and your vehicle if registered outside, drive on.

You are free to drive what you want. Have your ownership and insurance on hand as always, ignore the stupidity and enjoy your vehicle and the countryside.

Common sense is the name of the game, you have nothing to be perturbed about.

[M38CDNBill]

For your information about this legislative alert in Michigan.

https://www.semasan.com/legislative-...e-titling-pass

Cheers

[Dave D.]

Originally Posted by Robin Craig

Dave D,

Please understand that this issue is solely aimed at owners of vehicles resident in Quebec. If you reside outside and your vehicle if registered outside, drive on.

You are free to drive what you want. Have your ownership and insurance on hand as always, ignore the stupidity and enjoy your vehicle and the countryside.

Common sense is the name of the game, you have nothing to be perturbed about.

Perturbed is soft. It's all the other words that go along with outraged like strontium, cesium and melt down. When Quebec residents can roll in their MV's again, the cooling can begin.

It's not just the oppression of fellow Canadians that is the driver. We had plans, big plans.

We have nation wide projects in draft that could take the entire historical fleet and those willing to help. Canada just passed a 70th anniversary on August 29th and we want to show what Canada did in the 5 years after the Soviet Union tested their first nuclear device. We have 5 years to complete the project for a reveal for the 75th and it can only be done with national support.

The first two thousand sites are already mapped out across Canada and we need local MV's to help photo-document their area. We're left in limbo wondering what our next step is so the kettle is boiling.

It's time sensitive because our history continues to go away. It's ok that it does, we just want a visual record before it's all gone. Rolling Historical Military Vehicles are fantastic reminders of how things once were. I'm waiting for a response from the transportation minister for a date when we can all hit the highway again. Until then, the wrecking ball is just warming up.

[Eric B]

I wonder if this is a plan to get all of the MV's off the road in time to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the October crises? October 2020.

Eric

[Patrick B]

It sounds like you guys are doing a great job at straightening this problem out. I still have no idea what to do about my problem. Ive been looking into the "Canadian human rights act" what do you guys think I should be doing?

Edit: I removed a screenshot of Part 1 section 5 because it was too large..

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/.../fulltext.html

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Patrick B

It sounds like you guys are doing a great job at straightening this problem out. I still have no idea what to do about my problem. Ive been looking into the "Canadian human rights act" what do you guys think I should be doing?

Edit: I removed a screenshot of Part 1 section 5 because it was too large..

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/.../fulltext.html

I wonder how the Canadian Human Rights Act enters this conversation. That section deals with discrimination or denial on a Charter protection. The sentence is the operative one, "on a prohibited ground of discrimination".

Driving is a privilege not a right, and within the broad bounds of provincial jurisdictions there will always be variation. But, the Charter does allow for universality and equality between provinces. That would mean driving could not be prohibited completely while allowed in another province, unless so severe as to incur the notwithstanding clause.

[Dave D.]

Originally Posted by Patrick B

It sounds like you guys are doing a great job at straightening this problem out. I still have no idea what to do about my problem. Ive been looking into the "Canadian human rights act" what do you guys think I should be doing?

Edit: I removed a screenshot of Part 1 section 5 because it was too large..

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/.../fulltext.html

We might need to start a new thread for this...maybe?

Have you had conversations with other Ferret owners?

I'm sure we have at least two Ferrets right here in Edmonton and I'm real sure they're Cold War historical vehicles that drive on our roads, sometimes under MP escort.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS2IGvFqFdw

Let's give birth to some new ideas and see what we come up with.
Tank gives birth is a good place to start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCN80PsdMR0

Seriously, our actions or lack there of will dictate how gov/ insurance / law guides the future for collectors. Getting a pile of folks onboard to paddle seems to help. What haven't you done or who haven't you contacted yet? Who has been in your corner and who do we need to get this fixed?

Have you gone public? Stories on the 'human interest' side to gain more public support is the guide we've been given. If the story is 'good for the greater public' and you have public support, push-back will be massive.....almost critical.

It's only my opinion that rolling history, under the correct maintenance is a benefit for the greater public. Locking them in museums limits their public exposure therefore not locking them in museums has a great public value.
We should push for status quo and bust these 'restriction' facades before they become our structure.

Just thinking out loud so these are only questions that leaked out and meant to open dialogue. How can we all paddle the canoe in the same direction?

What happens if we haul Alberta registered Ferrets to Penticton for their annual car show?
Does the RCMP enforce this new restricted Ferret ruling?
Does this affect tourism?

Is there a previous legal precedent set in B.C.? Were Ferrets registered before and if so, what changed?

There is a legal directorate to protect history in Canada. Does it apply in this case and is it being used?

Your question about human rights is part of a broad band question. Are the actions they are taking legal? Maybe the RCMP or Provincial Police don't know about this ban and would have someone that would investigate it, get back to you with info.

The the next thing that comes to mind is damages. There is a cost/ value to everything you've done to this point including the time spent fighting this. Are they prepared to cover damages in a lawsuit?

Does the Legion know you have a Ferret that could visit the boys on Friday nights?

Sometimes just calling up the local car clubs to talk about your challenge is enough to things shifted the right direction. https://www.sva.bc.ca/

What have we missed?

Culture and Heritage, Finance, Defence, existing museums with rolling stock, sports teams that need a mascot, Universities that teach history, business@thecanadianpress.com ?

[Patrick B]

the reason i bring up the Canadian human rights laws is because i am being refused a service that is provided to other people here in BC. ICBC has been informed that there are other ferrets here in BC registered with vintage plates but they do not care to acknowledge it. To me that is discrimination.

Discriminatory Practices

Denial of good, service, facility or accommodation

5 It is a discriminatory practice in the provision of goods, services, facilities or accommodation customarily available to the general public

(a) to deny, or to deny access to, any such good, service, facility or accommodation to any individual, or

(b) to differentiate adversely in relation to any individual,

on a prohibited ground of discrimination.

1976-77, c. 33, s. 5

I have spoken with more than one owner here in BC that have ferrets registered with vintage plates. They dont understand why i am having so much trouble.
The SVA tried to help me but couldnt.
I have basically run out of ideas that do not involve lawyers.

[Patrick B]

Last year i joined Western Command Military Historical Society. I have spoken with the Canadian Military Education Centre, the Speciality Vehicle Association Of BC, previous ICBC employees in upper positions that have registered ferrets in the past have spoken with ICBC on my behave and nothing has come from any of it.

Perhaps I should start a new thread. Sorry about derailing the original thread.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

The risk is they will go after the existing Ferret owners and refuse their registrations making you the bad guy.

Originally Posted by Patrick B

the reason i bring up the Canadian human rights laws is because i am being refused a service that is provided to other people here in BC. ICBC has been informed that there are other ferrets here in BC registered with vintage plates but they do not care to acknowledge it. To me that is discrimination.

Discriminatory Practices

Denial of good, service, facility or accommodation

5 It is a discriminatory practice in the provision of goods, services, facilities or accommodation customarily available to the general public

(a) to deny, or to deny access to, any such good, service, facility or accommodation to any individual, or

(b) to differentiate adversely in relation to any individual,

on a prohibited ground of discrimination.

1976-77, c. 33, s. 5

I have spoken with more than one owner here in BC that have ferrets registered with vintage plates. They dont understand why i am having so much trouble.
The SVA tried to help me but couldnt.
I have basically run out of ideas that do not involve lawyers.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Patrick B

the reason i bring up the Canadian human rights laws is because i am being refused a service that is provided to other people here in BC. ICBC has been informed that there are other ferrets here in BC registered with vintage plates but they do not care to acknowledge it. To me that is discrimination.

Discriminatory Practices

Denial of good, service, facility or accommodation

5 It is a discriminatory practice in the provision of goods, services, facilities or accommodation customarily available to the general public

(a) to deny, or to deny access to, any such good, service, facility or accommodation to any individual, or

(b) to differentiate adversely in relation to any individual,

on a prohibited ground of discrimination.

1976-77, c. 33, s. 5

I have spoken with more than one owner here in BC that have ferrets registered with vintage plates. They dont understand why i am having so much trouble.
The SVA tried to help me but couldnt.
I have basically run out of ideas that do not involve lawyers.

Patrick, the clause you cite is the operative one for that body of legislation and its specific protections. Article 15 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms deals with equality across the country, https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sj...eck/art15.html.

Jurisprudence noted by the Department of Justice's own page highlights one grounds as "Administrative action (e.g., the implementation of an otherwise non-discriminatory statute in a discriminatory way by government officials) (Little Sisters Book and Art Emporium v. Canada (Minister of Justice), [2000] 2 S.C.R. 1120)." This case dealt with a bookstore catering to gay and lesbian clients, and was charged under obscenity laws for selling printed materials. I think it was always in trouble with the Customs people who refused to allow importation of this material.

Despite my university level English, I was never clever enough to follow every part of the legal discussion in the website. But.... it would appear the the discrimination has to meet more than one test to be covered by this Section. We as vehicle owners are not in the same class of injury as citizens who may have suffered prolonged harsh treatment or discrimination on far worse grounds.

There is an equivalent Quebec charter. http://legisquebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/ShowDoc/cs/C-12 Part 1 Chapter 1 Paragraph 6. "Every person has a right to the peaceful enjoyment and free disposition of his property, except to the extent provided by law." The extent of the law put the permission to enjoy property into the hands of the government, and that is what they are doing regulating the issue or refusal to issue vehicle registrations. Being owners of one class of vehicle which has been singled out as something different might be a discriminatory practise.

Paragraph 12 continues, "12. No one may, through discrimination, refuse to make a juridical act concerning goods or services ordinarily offered to the public." The phrase ordinarily offered could likely be read as what was once done. As I read the rest of the Act and its articles, I did not see other language about property, but lots about legal and human rights.