Books photos about executed POWS June 1944

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
I'm so tickled to have just found record of my Grandfather's WW1 enlistment in Archivianet...this man is Rifleman Edward Smith's Father.

Hi Karmen;

It looks like when Eddie's father joined, he was with the 190th (Winnipeg Rifles) Infantry Battalion, C.E.F., who left Canada for the UK in May 1917 and upon arrival in England, were broken up and absorbed into the 18th Reserve Battalion, in other words, they became reinforcements for the Infantry Battalions already serving in France and Flanders.

The reason for his joining so late, may have been worked related.

Cheers

Wow! Thanks Mark.

Do you mean "Royal Winnipeg Rifles" (Little Black Devils)??? I love the IDEA of he and Uncle Ed being Little Black Devils

As mentioned in the other thread, Grandpa was also aged 34 when he signed up. Family history that side tells me he was very UNlikely shirking ... as I learn more, I learn my Uncles (Grandpa Joe's kids) all went overseas in WW2, which means they volunteered

If Grandpa didn't join on til March 13, 1917. then was shipped out in MAY 1917 as reinforcement, wow ... where/when was the training before being thrown to the wolves??????????? (is this a stupid question?)

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
Wow! Thanks Mark.

Do you mean "Royal Winnipeg Rifles" (Little Black Devils)??? I love the IDEA of he and Uncle Ed being Little Black Devils

As mentioned in the other thread, Grandpa was also aged 34 when he signed up. Family history that side tells me he was very UNlikely shirking ... as I learn more, I learn my Uncles (Grandpa Joe's kids) all went overseas in WW2, which means they volunteered

If Grandpa didn't join on til March 13, 1917. then was shipped out in MAY 1917 as reinforcement, wow ... where/when was the training before being thrown to the wolves??????????? (is this a stupid question?)

Hi Karmen;

Yes, 190th (Winnipeg Rifles) Infantry Battalion, C.E.F. - "Royal Winnipeg Rifles" (Little Black Devils). Much of their training would have been done in England before proceeding to France - I'll get back to you with more details on this.

Cheers

I wonder if Uncle Eddie chose the RWR's because Grandpa served with them. I like to think so. and I like family traditions )

By the way Master Mark .... have I ever thanked you for your PATIENCE with me? Well ... thanks.

I'm really gonna have to get a table to work on soon... and eat off eek

coffee time ...

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
By the way Master Mark .... have I ever thanked you for your PATIENCE with me?

It keeps my little mind occupied............

[Mark W. Tonner]

Thumb-nail sketch history:

190th Infantry Battalion

Name: Winnipeg Rifles
Motto Translation: Named by the Enemy
Authority: General Order Number 69, dated: 15th July 1916
Recruiting Area: Winnipeg and district
Mobilization Headquarters: Winnipeg, Manitoba

Officer Commanding: Lieutenant-Colonel G.K. Watson

Service:

Canada: 21 January 1916 to 3 May 1917
England: 14 May 1917 to 14 May 1917 - absorbed into the 18th Reserve Battalion upon landing in England
France: No service as a unit

Their Cap Badge:

[Mark W. Tonner]

Thumb-nail sketch history:

Formed in England, January 1917 - Manitoba affiliation -

Trained the - 141st, 144th, 181st, 182nd, 190th, 203rd and 251st Infantry Battalions, C.E.F.

Reinforced the - 8th, 52nd, and 78th Infantry Battalions, C.E.F. in France

Note:

8th (90th Winnipeg Rifles) Infantry Battalion, C.E.F.

52nd (New Ontario Battalion) Infantry Battalion, C.E.F. - they were orignially mobilized at Port Arthur, Ontario - March 1915

78th (Winnipeg Grenadiers) Infantry Battalion, C.E.F.

Cheers

So glad you have a little mind I can keep busy Seriously tho, thanks.

I think I'm losing my focus here and need a little playtime ... plus I'm having to pull up the reply page again to view these latest posts...but I shall be back.

I'm finding out more about my fathers role in WW2 ... and this information I share with you all because of it's tie in with my Uncle Ed's story. Uncle Eddie was my Mom's brother.

I don't know which German POWS my father may have dealt with here in Canada ... but read on ... this makes me wonder, of course, about any links between any of the POWS my dad "escorted" and the executions of any of our 156 Canadian Soldiers. What is the likelihood?

My Father:he spent the entire war at Camp Shilo in
Manitoba....he was a sergeant in the P.P.C.L.I. and was an instructor. He also had the dubious job of going to Halifax to meet German P.O.W.s and
escorting them to their various posts in Canada. He was never sent overseas because he was next to 4F as he had flat feet.

The above info is all I know so far.

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Karmen;

Thought you may find this of interest: http://www.waramps.ca/military/wwii/tnop.html

Cheers

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Hi Karmen;

Thought you may find this of interest: http://www.waramps.ca/military/wwii/tnop.html

Cheers

Mark,

Thank You!

It's good to be able to refer to the written script of the video (I have the Video but the sound is not the greatest on my recording.
I'm really glad to be able to VIEW the script now...glad it's not PDF as I can't view PDF and can't download a reader(old browser/no room on HD)
The Video itself was sent to me as a Complimentary copy from Waramps in honour of my Uncle Eddie a long time ago because I was a "relative".



Karmen.

Uncle Eddie (aka Rifleman Edward Smith)

September 17, 1922 ... the day you were born.
21 years of life, from infancy in your rural
roots and large family, to toddling to young boyhood, and progressing
to manhood ... to age 21. So short a life span,
yet a life lived.

You've touched many ... I've only to go back
home to listen to stories from those who recall
your life at home. The nature and realities of
the end of your life, most don't know, until I tell
them.

You've touched me. Your memory has taken me
on journey of discovery ... of roots. Of understanding. Of knowledge. Of new expriences
and new relationships.

Your life ... has touched and entertwined with
mine in most wonderful ways ... you brought me
much... and I celebrate your 21 years and just
wish I could have had the pleasure and delight
of meeting you in person ...just to see you,and
to tell you how you have effectd me. And how you
were so loved and missed, specially your daring and playfulness.

All these "after effects" of your life and death,
continue. That old immortality ... you live on
in memory and in your impact ... and will continue
to do so.

Yes ... I celebrate your life as my family member
and for the life you've given others.

I'm glad you imprinted so deeply in my mind as a tiny child ... for you've brought me much ... in
many ways, and for that ... I'm grateful.

Funny ... I'm in here as a result of your death.
I had a call on my voicemail tonite from someone
who has tried to find me , to tell me about people he has talked to who actually saw your death in person. But today ... all I can think about is
your life lived ... I want to think about that
today ... to celebrate your life.

Heartfelt from Karmen

Just imagine ... these 156 men ...
they had birthdays and families and lives
too ... nice to learn their stories about
their lives and who THEY "touched" ...
and how. Who they were. I wish every persons
story could be known and shared because the
cost of war is so dear and so pervasive.
Celebrate their lives too ... we've all been
"touched" ... somehow.

Hi Everyone,

I just need to share with all of you the fact that on 22 September 2004, I, Karmen, got to meet the amazing Master Geoff Winnington-Ball in person. The meeting was very signifignt, wonderful and emotional after about 18 months of exchanging information and getting to know each other through this forum.

THIS is the man who has done so much in creating, and providing the MLU, so that in the end, I should find MLU Forum, and MLU itself, who IS Geoff Winnington-Ball ... the man who visited, honoured, and saluted my "Uncle Eddie" Rifleman Edward Smith at rest in Beny-Sur-Mer, Normandy, on my behalf. I can't get over the fact that Geoff was finally standing right in front of me at long last!

I sit here, right now, wearing a T-Shirt given to me by Geoff ... on the T-Shirt is printed:


D-Day
Operation Overlord
June 6th
1944 - 2004

I treasure my T-Shirt as a memento of SO much.

Geoff ... what can I say? You KNOW how meaningful this all is to me, and you also know how very glad I am that you have become such an integral part of this experience, and consequently, my own family history and my own life experiences, and people ultra signifigant to it. Thank you ...

From the heart,

Karmen

Hi People,

And HERE is a photo of Geoff and I together in Winnipeg, me wearing the 60th Anniversary D-Day T-Shirt that Geoff gave me as a gift/memory of his visit to "Uncle Eddie" and the whole Anniversary event ... Karmen

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Carman;

Your Uncle, Rifleman Smith, E., was indeed murdered, after capture on 8 June 1944, at Fontenay-le-Pesnel. This is the site where Mohnke was responsible for the murders.

Originally, your Uncle was not one of the ones listed as being executed after capture by the 12th SS, he was listed as being Killed in Action, at Putot-en-Bessin, on 8 June 1944.

Anyways, hope all of the above helps.

Cheers

Hi Mark,

I've just been browsing this thread as I often do.

I'm wondering WHERE you found this information about Uncle Eddie having first been listed as KIA at Putot-En-Bessin on June 8 ... and then the CORRECTED information? I haven't come across anything explaining any of this ... did they only know for sure when his body was actually discovered? And WHEN was his body discovered and classsified as EXECUTED as opposed to KIA? Especially when was he officially listed as executed.

And WHY did the Royal Winnipeg Rifles not list him as such until ... what? 1989 you say? I don't understand THIS part at all.

I'm sorry to be so confused... (born that way ) Did I already learn about this but somehow it hasn't registered?

If you can answer any of this stuff I'd be obliged. If not, not to worry... and thanks anyways.

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
Hi Mark,

I've just been browsing this thread as I often do.

I'm wondering WHERE you found this information about Uncle Eddie having first been listed as KIA at Putot-En-Bessin on June 8 ... and then the CORRECTED information? I haven't come across anything explaining any of this ... did they only know for sure when his body was actually discovered? And WHEN was his body discovered and classsified as EXECUTED as opposed to KIA? Especially when was he officially listed as executed.

Hi Karmen;

From my post on page 1 of this thread:

"Your Uncle, Rifleman Smith, E., was indeed murdered, after capture on 8 June 1944, at Fontenay-le-Pesnel. This is the site where Mohnke was responsible for the murders.

Both the book CONDUCT UNBECOMING and the video TAKE NO PRISONERS, place your Uncle has one of the victims at Fontenay-le-Pesnel.

The memorial erected at Audrieu, by the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, in 1989, bears your Uncle's name upon it, along with the others who were murdered and also, he is now listed by the Royal Winnipeg Rifles as being murdered.

I will post a more detailed response concerning Fontenay-le-Pesnel, once I've put the details together.

Originally, your Uncle was not one of the ones listed as being executed after capture by the 12th SS, he was listed as being Killed in Action, at Putot-en-Bessin, on 8 June 1944."

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
And WHY did the Royal Winnipeg Rifles not list him as such until ... what? 1989 you say? I don't understand THIS part at all.

If I remember correctly, the error wasn't found until around 1985, or so, while further research was being done on a forthcoming updated and exbanded edition of the Rifles history, and if I remember right, it was Don Zorniak who passed this along to me. In the current edition of the Rifles history (1983)(Roll of Honour), Eddie is carried as being KIA on 8/6/44, this is also to be corrected in the forthcoming publication.

Hope this answers your questions.

Cheers

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Hi Karmen;

From my post on page 1 of this thread:

"Your Uncle, Rifleman Smith, E., was indeed murdered, after capture on 8 June 1944, at Fontenay-le-Pesnel. This is the site where Mohnke was responsible for the murders.

Both the book CONDUCT UNBECOMING and the video TAKE NO PRISONERS, place your Uncle has one of the victims at Fontenay-le-Pesnel.

The memorial erected at Audrieu, by the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, in 1989, bears your Uncle's name upon it, along with the others who were murdered and also, he is now listed by the Royal Winnipeg Rifles as being murdered.

I will post a more detailed response concerning Fontenay-le-Pesnel, once I've put the details together.

Originally, your Uncle was not one of the ones listed as being executed after capture by the 12th SS, he was listed as being Killed in Action, at Putot-en-Bessin, on 8 June 1944."



If I remember correctly, the error wasn't found until around 1985, or so, while further research was being done on a forthcoming updated and exbanded edition of the Rifles history, and if I remember right, it was Don Zorniak who passed this along to me. In the current edition of the Rifles history (1983)(Roll of Honour), Eddie is carried as being KIA on 8/6/44, this is also to be corrected in the forthcoming publication.

Hope this answers your questions.

Cheers

Thank you so much for taking the time for this Mark. My mind is pretty blitzed at the moment and I'll have to read this another day.

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

No problem.

Cheers

Hi ... and here I am again in my reason for being here

It's been over two years since I've been an MLU'er and in spite of the people I've connected with, I've yet to acually SIT DOWN with someone and pour over my Uncle Eddie's service records so I can understand them. Much has gotten in the way of progress, but now ... well ...

K.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Vets Dottir
Hi ... and here I am again in my reason for being here

It's been over two years since I've been an MLU'er and in spite of the people I've connected with, I've yet to acually SIT DOWN with someone and pour over my Uncle Eddie's service records so I can understand them. Much has gotten in the way of progress, but now ... well ...

K.

Karmen;

Might I suggest that you read this related thread, entitled 'Rifleman Smith, Edward', which can be found here

Cheers

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Karmen;

Might I suggest that you read this related thread, entitled 'Rifleman Smith, Edward', which can be found here

Cheers

Hi Mark,

Ok ... will do

(hmmm ... and why did i NOT notice this last post of yours before just now??? )

BTW ... I like how you started a new thread specifically regards my Uncle, even though some of THAT thread is also relevant in this one as being about the rest of the group of POWS he was with.

Well ... now, it's late, and I need to go get a little Irish (Jamesons in hot chocolate) to go with my Scot (Jifferoo)

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Karmen;

I don't know if you are aware of it or not, but Edward's mother received a letter (dated: 29 July 1947) from the Director of Records (NDHQ-Ottawa), which had enclosed, a photograph of Edward's grave and marker (head stone) in Beny-sur-Mer Canadian Military Cemetery. This would mean, that at least Edward's mother was able to see his final resting place.

Mark,

Thank you. I don't really remember if I ever saw that photo when I was a little kid ... if so, it would have been before I was age 10 ... funny how extremely vividly I used to remember EVERYTHING! Now? Pffffffffft. Its often more along the lines of "I remember that I USED TO remember"

I'm glad Granny had at least that much regards where her son is laid to rest. I wish her and Ed's Dad and Siblings ALL could know that Geoff visited and honoured, and saluted, and yes "spoke" with him there too. That would have meant so much to all of them ... I know this.

Thanks.

Karmen

Hello Everyone,

I've been wanting to post these sections of a June 1943 group photo of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles that was scanned and sent to me by Don Zorniak from The Royal Winnipeg Rifles Museum. The original photo is framed and is at the museum, well, actually in the "office part" . many photos aren't placed and hung yet, I assume due to needing to find space for them.

I still haven't been able to pick out my uncle Eddie's face out of this group ... but haven't given up hope that I might yet

Here is the first section ... 3 more to come:

Karmen

Section 2:

Section 3:

... and 4, the final section:

Hmmm ... they're quite small in here? Pretty hard to see the faces. Sorry folks. Maybe I'll learn how to re-size and repost them so you can view the faces easier.

Karmen

[Crewman]

Originally posted by Vets_Dottir I'm looking for books about the Canadian POWS who were executed by the 12th SS Panzer Div June 8, 1944.

Hello,

Various aspects of the rules of war violations in Normandy, also the case you mentioned, are described in Tony Foster's book under the title of "Meeting of Generals". The book is written by the son of Maj.-Gen. Harry W. Foster, ex-GOC of the Canadian 4th Armoured Division. Foster mentions the cases of executing the POWs by both fighting sides. From your point of view the most interesting may be the fact that after the war Maj.-Gen. Harry W. Foster had been ordered to act as president of a courtmartial assembled to hear evidence against SS-Brigadeführer Kurt Meyer.


Best regards

Crewman



PS. Full description of mentioned book:

Tony Foster
Meeting of Generals
Authors Choice Press Inc., Lincoln 1986
ISBN 0-595-13750-4