Otter LRC CM4647296 comes home

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I wonder if the white wasn't painted over the ta signs to obliterate them prior to disposal. That was often done to surplus vehicles in Canada

[David Dunlop]

Now my curiosity is peaked.

To what end would the RCASC be using Otters? Convoy escort in forward areas?

David

[Jordan Baker]

More original markings found. On the passenger door is the W/T. The exciting find was on the rear lower plate. It’s original CMD #. I think it’s CMD 26407. Lastly I found on the right rear fender what I believe to be a postwar Dutch marking. The Netherlands flag in what I think was a black circle.

It’s nice finding these numbers as hopefully as others have said this vehicle can be traced.

Alex, I’ve checked the white plate underneath and it doesn’t look to have had any thing. The lower front plate might have something but it will have to wait since the nose is pretty close to the shop door. Thanks for those pictures. I have not seen those ones before.

David, as for its role in RCASC usecheck out the info sheet below.

[marco]

Great to see this Otter in good hands and being restored!

In post #2 it looks like the remains of a registration number CM 46??296 are visible, similar to the number on the Otter on the attached photo (from the book “XII Manitoba Dragoons a tribune” by B. Tascona, showing Otter used during training in the U.K. 1943).

Marco

[Alex van de Wetering]

Lastly I found on the right rear fender what I believe to be a postwar Dutch marking. The Netherlands flag in what I think was a black circle.

Jordan, you might even be able to find an orange lion marking under the red-white-blue dutch flag. The black circle with orange lion was the marking used just after the war (and during the war by the Irene Brigade), later in life Dutch army vehicles received a licence plate and red-white-blue flag in stead of the older style markings.

Attached are two Ward la France wreckers in different time periods. Early post-war with orange lion and later with licence plate and flag marking.
source: https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/

[Alex van de Wetering]

By the way....interesting to see that some Otters were given a census number with CM-prefix, while others were given a (C)F prefix!

Alex

[Jordan Baker]

Thanks Alex.

My knowledge on the Dutch markings is quite limited.

Yes the difference in the WD numbers. Originally they were considered “cars” so they got the CM numbers. Later contracts they were considered “armoured cars” and got the F numbers. I think they started getting F numbers quite late in construction around October/November of 42.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Jordan, you might even be able to find an orange lion marking under the red-white-blue dutch flag. The black circle with orange lion was the marking used just after the war (and during the war by the Irene Brigade), later in life Dutch army vehicles received a licence plate and red-white-blue flag in stead of the older style markings.

To add to that, here's an example of an Otter with the early post-war markings, consisting of an orange lion on a black circle on the center of the nose, plus a five digit census number in white on the side of the bonnet:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

4075099082_91d6619b6f_o.jpg
An Otter of the Military Police in front of the "Concertgebouw" (Concert hall) during a military parade, Museumplein, Amsterdam, 27 March 1952 (Foto Ben van Meerendonk / AHF, collectie IISG, Amsterdam)

[James P]

This is shaping up to be another great thread. Informative, interesting and always great to see a vehicle given the in depth attention that Jordan is capable of.

[David Dunlop]

Just a thought, Jordan.

Try shining a UV/Black Light lamp on the markings as you are working on them. Different paints react differently that might otherwise look similar under normal light. Bulbs are readily available at Home Depot, Rona etc, in either incandescent or CFB versions.

David

[Jordan Baker]

Thanks all for the extra information.

I’ll have to try the black light. I’m finding that the upper layers can easily be chipped off using a small scraper tool from the wartime white paint. It must have had enough of a smooth surface to reduce the adhesion. After the holidays I’m gong to contact Library and Archives to see about getting copies of the War Diaries for 3rd Infantry Brigade Company. Sadly they are not online.

[Jordan Baker]

The original factory applied WD#. The first picture is on the left side of the hull. Picture 2 is on the right side. At some point in its life it had a spare tire mount added. This went right over the factory applied WD#.

Picture 3 is an odd marking I found either on or under the factory paint layer. I also found these numbers on the turret opening guard. I’m wondering if they were left over markings during the manufacturing process?

[David Herbert]

I think it is very likely that at least some are markings left over from the manufacturing process. There will have been a Shop number for the vehicle as a whole but there will also have been batch numbers, individual part and assembly numbers and quality control marks. If you can find good factory shots of vehicles under construction you may get some idea of what was typical. I don't know about Otters but Rams, Grizzlies and Sextons had their Shop number stamped into the hull itself and there was a correlation to the original Army / WD number.

David

[Bob Carriere]

Jordan

Taking photos at various stages of the scraping process in high res. will later allow you to play with photo shop and allow you to read the impossible by playing with contrast, color, saturation, etc. even dark ereas /shadows of pictures can be hi-lightened and read.....

Good luck

[Tim Bell]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

I wonder if the white wasn't painted over the ta signs to obliterate them prior to disposal. That was often done to surplus vehicles in Canada

I read in one of the Armoured Delivery Regt war diaries (in Netherlands/Belgium areas in June 45) that part of the recovery and decommissioning work for vehicles at the end of the war was to remove unit markings... it didn't say how that was to be done though.

Tim

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Tim Bell

I read in one of the Armoured Delivery Regt war diaries (in Netherlands/Belgium areas in June 45) that part of the recovery and decommissioning work for vehicles at the end of the war was to remove unit markings... it didn't say how that was to be done though.

Tim, that's interesting to read. Could you share some more details?

When studying the Sherman and Churchill tanks at Westkapelle, I noted that the census numbers seems to have been painted over - see below. The tanks seem to be have abandoned in situ, struck off strenght, markings painted over, and then were transferred administratively to the Dutch war assets organization which sold them for scrap.

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Sherman V Crab, T-148656,.... Circa 1946, still in the same spot and still complete but the WD census number seems to have been painted out. Maybe because it has been struck off census?

Sherman Crab T-148656 1946.jpg

[Jordan Baker]

Finally found one of the Koehler Wheat Lamps as fitted to these vehicles. It also came with the charger. I’ll have to modify the charger as the vehicle one has a high/low charger function and an on/off switch. It was also wired for 12v DC to match the vehicle. Whereas this one is setup for 120v AC. But the main concern was getting the proper style hookups.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

Finally found one of the Koehler Wheat Lamps as fitted to these vehicles. It also came with the charger. I’ll have to modify the charger as the vehicle one has a high/low charger function and an on/off switch. It was also wired for 12v DC to match the vehicle. Whereas this one is setup for 120v AC. But the main concern was getting the proper style hookups.

Good find, that's a hard one to get. They are a commercial mining lamp from the 1930s but because they aren't pretty brass nobody thought to save any.

[Jordan Baker]

I’ve been looking for about 2 years now. Found it on eBay. The seller never posted pictures of the charger but said it came with one. So I was happy when he sent me some pictures of it that it matched the original bits in the Overloon Museum Otter.

[Jordan Baker]

Few more bits for this project. Just got the side/tail light sockets made up.