Otter LRC CM4647296 comes home

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

I wonder if the white wasn't painted over the ta signs to obliterate them prior to disposal. That was often done to surplus vehicles in Canada

[David Dunlop]

Now my curiosity is peaked.

To what end would the RCASC be using Otters? Convoy escort in forward areas?

David

[Jordan Baker]

More original markings found. On the passenger door is the W/T. The exciting find was on the rear lower plate. It’s original CMD #. I think it’s CMD 26407. Lastly I found on the right rear fender what I believe to be a postwar Dutch marking. The Netherlands flag in what I think was a black circle.

It’s nice finding these numbers as hopefully as others have said this vehicle can be traced.

Alex, I’ve checked the white plate underneath and it doesn’t look to have had any thing. The lower front plate might have something but it will have to wait since the nose is pretty close to the shop door. Thanks for those pictures. I have not seen those ones before.

David, as for its role in RCASC usecheck out the info sheet below.

[marco]

Great to see this Otter in good hands and being restored!

In post #2 it looks like the remains of a registration number CM 46??296 are visible, similar to the number on the Otter on the attached photo (from the book “XII Manitoba Dragoons a tribune” by B. Tascona, showing Otter used during training in the U.K. 1943).

Marco

[Alex van de Wetering]

Lastly I found on the right rear fender what I believe to be a postwar Dutch marking. The Netherlands flag in what I think was a black circle.

Jordan, you might even be able to find an orange lion marking under the red-white-blue dutch flag. The black circle with orange lion was the marking used just after the war (and during the war by the Irene Brigade), later in life Dutch army vehicles received a licence plate and red-white-blue flag in stead of the older style markings.

Attached are two Ward la France wreckers in different time periods. Early post-war with orange lion and later with licence plate and flag marking.
source: https://nimh-beeldbank.defensie.nl/

[Alex van de Wetering]

By the way....interesting to see that some Otters were given a census number with CM-prefix, while others were given a (C)F prefix!

Alex

[Jordan Baker]

Thanks Alex.

My knowledge on the Dutch markings is quite limited.

Yes the difference in the WD numbers. Originally they were considered “cars” so they got the CM numbers. Later contracts they were considered “armoured cars” and got the F numbers. I think they started getting F numbers quite late in construction around October/November of 42.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Jordan, you might even be able to find an orange lion marking under the red-white-blue dutch flag. The black circle with orange lion was the marking used just after the war (and during the war by the Irene Brigade), later in life Dutch army vehicles received a licence plate and red-white-blue flag in stead of the older style markings.

To add to that, here's an example of an Otter with the early post-war markings, consisting of an orange lion on a black circle on the center of the nose, plus a five digit census number in white on the side of the bonnet:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

An Otter of the Military Police in front of the "Concertgebouw" (Concert hall) during a military parade, Museumplein, Amsterdam, 27 March 1952 (Foto Ben van Meerendonk / AHF, collectie IISG, Amsterdam)

[James P]

This is shaping up to be another great thread. Informative, interesting and always great to see a vehicle given the in depth attention that Jordan is capable of.

[David Dunlop]

Just a thought, Jordan.

Try shining a UV/Black Light lamp on the markings as you are working on them. Different paints react differently that might otherwise look similar under normal light. Bulbs are readily available at Home Depot, Rona etc, in either incandescent or CFB versions.

David

[Jordan Baker]

Thanks all for the extra information.

I’ll have to try the black light. I’m finding that the upper layers can easily be chipped off using a small scraper tool from the wartime white paint. It must have had enough of a smooth surface to reduce the adhesion. After the holidays I’m gong to contact Library and Archives to see about getting copies of the War Diaries for 3rd Infantry Brigade Company. Sadly they are not online.

[Jordan Baker]

The original factory applied WD#. The first picture is on the left side of the hull. Picture 2 is on the right side. At some point in its life it had a spare tire mount added. This went right over the factory applied WD#.

Picture 3 is an odd marking I found either on or under the factory paint layer. I also found these numbers on the turret opening guard. I’m wondering if they were left over markings during the manufacturing process?

[David Herbert]

I think it is very likely that at least some are markings left over from the manufacturing process. There will have been a Shop number for the vehicle as a whole but there will also have been batch numbers, individual part and assembly numbers and quality control marks. If you can find good factory shots of vehicles under construction you may get some idea of what was typical. I don't know about Otters but Rams, Grizzlies and Sextons had their Shop number stamped into the hull itself and there was a correlation to the original Army / WD number.

David

[Bob Carriere]

Jordan

Taking photos at various stages of the scraping process in high res. will later allow you to play with photo shop and allow you to read the impossible by playing with contrast, color, saturation, etc. even dark ereas /shadows of pictures can be hi-lightened and read.....

Good luck

[Jordan Baker]

I may have found the hull number stamped into the turret ring. Anyone else familiar with a Otters able to comment?

[Jordan Baker]

I found a nice little souvenir today wedged in behind the master cutout switch. A Belgium made 1950 .303 round. It’s been fired by a Bren. It would have been really something if it had been a wartime round but this is still neat.

[chris vickery]

And... you know it was fired by a Bren, how?
I know it was, but for the audience please an educational tidbit.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by chris vickery

And... you know it was fired by a Bren, how?
I know it was, but for the audience please an educational tidbit.

Oblong firing pin depression strike on the primer. Anything else is circular.

[Jordan Baker]

Interior lamp assembly for the Otter. It’s pretty much the same as found on the Universal Carrier dash. However it only uses one wire and the socket is grounded versus the double wire on the Universal Carrier.

Sadly something smacked the lamp pretty hard at some point and crushed in the dome. The mounting bracket was also bent and broken because of that as well. I clamped the two parts and backed them with some brass washers then used my Mig welder. Came out very well. I did go back and re weld the one joint as I wasn’t happy with it the first time. Now to see about straightening out the dome. It’s thin brass so I’m not too hopeful it will.

[Jordan Baker]

And the bracket all freshly sandblasted.

[David Herbert]

Those lamps were also used as interior lamps in Rams.

David

[Harry Moon]

same light on the Lynx1

[Jordan Baker]

I’m just about finished with the interior lamp. Thankfully after annealing the brass hood it came back to its proper shape quite easily. I also managed to get the threaded end seated back into the lamp body.

[Jordan Baker]

Today I discovered the remains of the Allied star on the side of the hull.

[Robin Craig]

Jordan love the progress made and love the markings found

[Alex van de Wetering]

CM46470....Close....but no sigar.

Two IWM pictures,
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205500067
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205500066

[Jordan Baker]

Thanks Alex.

I’ve found close but nothing yet.

[Jordan Baker]

Picked up a very nice NOS air filter assembly yesterday. It was a unique part to the Otter. We knew it was missing the support bracket under the air filter. However checking on my engine the support bracket was still there.

Th air filter assembly is visible in the wartime picture up on the roof.

[Tim Bell]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

I wonder if the white wasn't painted over the ta signs to obliterate them prior to disposal. That was often done to surplus vehicles in Canada

I read in one of the Armoured Delivery Regt war diaries (in Netherlands/Belgium areas in June 45) that part of the recovery and decommissioning work for vehicles at the end of the war was to remove unit markings... it didn't say how that was to be done though.

Tim

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Tim Bell

I read in one of the Armoured Delivery Regt war diaries (in Netherlands/Belgium areas in June 45) that part of the recovery and decommissioning work for vehicles at the end of the war was to remove unit markings... it didn't say how that was to be done though.

Tim, that's interesting to read. Could you share some more details?

When studying the Sherman and Churchill tanks at Westkapelle, I noted that the census numbers seems to have been painted over - see below. The tanks seem to be have abandoned in situ, struck off strenght, markings painted over, and then were transferred administratively to the Dutch war assets organization which sold them for scrap.

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Sherman V Crab, T-148656,.... Circa 1946, still in the same spot and still complete but the WD census number seems to have been painted out. Maybe because it has been struck off census?