Chevrolet 1311X3 15-cwt 4x2 GS truck

[cliff]

Indian Army Vehicle ID Please (original thread caption)

I found this photo while searching the Pictures Australia Website. Can any one ID the Indian Army vehicles please?

It is captioned "Indian troops in Malaya during World War II".

sorry I forgot to get a negative number or note which archive it came from.

[Bill Murray]

Cliff:

Looks to me like a Truck 15 CWT 4X2 GS (Indian) Chevrolet 1311X3.

[cliff]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Cliff:

Looks to me like a Truck 15 CWT 4X2 GS (Indian)
Chevrolet 1311X3.

Bill I was thinking Chev as well. 1938?

[Bill Murray]

Based on the side lights on the front wings, I would lean towards 1940.
Bill

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Side view

AWM Negative Number: 045230. Caption: TROOP CARRIER, 15 CWT LORRY, CHEVROLET, 113 1/2 INCH WHEELBASE. INDIAN ARMY VERSION. LEFT REAR VIEW, REAR CANOPY NOT FITTED.

[cliff]

Thanks Hanno... if I check my own files occassionly I may find the answer quicker

[nuyt]

Both 1939 and 1940 models were used, see Vanderveen.
Note the small desert style windscreens!

[Rich Payne]

I've been nosing around the British Pathé archive again. Is this a similar vehicle ?

http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?i...9670445ri4.jpg / http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4...0445ri4.th.jpg

http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?i...9670444pk3.jpg / http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9...0444pk3.th.jpg

http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?i...9670446dw9.jpg / http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9...0446dw9.th.jpg

This is what actually caught my attention

http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?i...8indianuw1.jpg / http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1...dianuw1.th.jpg

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I go with 1940 Model 3/4 ton chassis, assembled by GM India Ltd in Bombay.

[Bill Murray]

Rich:
Yes, essentially the same vehicle.

David:
3/4 ton being the same as 15 CWT?? I always forget.
Bill

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

112 lb = one hundredweight or one bag of cement, or cwt...I know!!!

so:

10 cwt = 1/2 ton

15 cwt = 3/4 ton

20 cwt = one ton

A '40 3/4 tonner would be a KD model. These were all sourced from Bloomfield CKD Boxing Plant or possibly Tarrytown, New York being 1940.

[nuyt]

While searching for an Indian Ford I found these two vehicles that intrigued me. First a Chevy I have never seen before:



then a FAT, presumably also Indian (the stills are from a Pathe film showing Indian troops in Persia in 1941), but the cowl looks different or is it just the angle?



artillery tractor 1938

[Don Birnie]

Nuyt
The Indian FAT is a Karrier KT 4 4X4 built and equipped at Acton for the India Stores Department.
It is all welded steel and the winch was vertical.

Don

[nuyt]

Thanks Don, the Karrier, forgot all about it

[nuyt]

Karrier in Persia



and a light truck, Chevie?

[nuyt]

I think the mysterious Chevrolet on hte bridge above may be an Indian version of the Australian water truck? Just guessing....

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Don Birnie

The Indian FAT is a Karrier KT 4 4X4 built and equipped at Acton for the India Stores Department.
It is all welded steel and the winch was vertical.

See http://miliblog.co.uk/?cat=48&nggpage=6 for a good picture of the Karrier KT-4 FAT: http://miliblog.co.uk/wp-content/gal...un-tractor.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

...from Hanno...

NOT a "pure" LRDG but still very interesting.

Although an Indian pattern with wooden bench seats it does depict a special purpose truck for wide open country....

Some observations...

Flat cowl 1938 or 39 Chev truck probably a 3/4 ton model.....

Nice areo wind screens.
No modification done to the front fenders.
Interesting 6 nut wheels with an additional (x)series of nuts to hold the two part rim together.
Wheel/tires look like they may be 13 inches...?
No visible water expansion tank.
Right Hand Drive.
Cargo box looks very similar construction to the truck on display in the London museum....also looks like wood boards on the box sides....

Here's another pic of one of those 15-cwt Chevrolets with Indian Pattern wooden body. It accompanies two 1533X2 30-cwt trucks, so it seems these were used by the LRDG. "Pure" enough for you?

"Object description: Three Long Range Desert Group 30-cwt Chevrolet trucks, surrounded by desert.
Label: LRDG (Long Range Desert Group) Chevrolet 30-cwt trucks, 25 May 1942."




Source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205196758

[Hanno Spoelstra]

"Object description: General George Patton, C-in-C of the American 7th Army, and General Władysław Anders watching the Carpathian Lancers Regiment exercising, using a M3 Scout Car as a stand (in the background). In the foreground Polish and American officers posing together for a souvenir photograph on the top of a Chevrolet WB 30 cwt truck.. Photograph taken during General Patton's official visit to the 2nd Polish Corps at Qassasin in Egypt."


Source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205234840

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Here's another pic of one of those 15-cwt Chevrolets with Indian Pattern wooden body. It accompanies two 1533X2 30-cwt trucks, so it seems these were used by the LRDG. "Pure" enough for you?

A further search yielded these were Chevrolet 1311X3 15-cwt 4x2 GS truck (1/2-ton 115" W.B., adapted from the civilian Chevy AK model; X3 = CKD for India). These were used by the LRDG - see the quotes below.

Originally Posted by paul Lincoln

Vehicles seen in photos with wooden bodies were 1311 15cwt trucks used by patrol commanders, medics etc.

Originally Posted by David_Hayward (RIP)

d) I may well be wrong in assuming that the 3-tonners delivered to Egypt under S/M 2005 weer Chassis with cab 1543 Models. I assumed that they were the same as CC60L because of the civilian versions registered in the UK. I can now see the logic in delivering at least the 1940 Models as Model 1541 flat-faced cowl for local bodying and cabs. That said the LRDG 1941 Models included some 1311 1/2 ton 115" chassis with flat-face cowl [as per 1311X3 to India] plus "200" 1533 134 1/2" w.b. chassis with cabs, delivered minus cabs and modified grilles!

Originally Posted by David_Hayward (RIP)

Known other Chevrolet MCP trucks include 1/2 ton 115" wheelbase Model 1311X3 for India (and alsdo some for the LRDG), 1421 1-ton chassis with flat-face cowl 125" wheelbase, 1531 2-ton 134 1/2" wheelbase chassis with cab including 200 1533x2 for the LRDG.

From Bart Vanderveen: Truck, 15-cwt, 4x2, GS (Indian), (Chevrolet 1311X3).
6 cyl., 78 bhp, 3F1R, wb 113-1/2 in., 3192 lb.
Troop Carrier based on Canadian-built 1939 (and later) 1/2-ton commercial chassis. Used in Egypt and North Africa by British Indian Army and LRDG. 9.00-13 sand tyres.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

AWM Negative Number: 045230. Caption: TROOP CARRIER, 15 CWT LORRY, CHEVROLET, 113 1/2 INCH WHEELBASE. INDIAN ARMY VERSION. LEFT REAR VIEW, REAR CANOPY NOT FITTED.

Here's a picture of a Chevrolet 1311X3 as captured by the German Afrika Korps.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

One more picture of the Chevrolet 1311X3 15-cwt 4x2 GS truck in use by the Indian Army:

[Hanno Spoelstra]

One more picture of the Chevrolet 1311X3 15-cwt 4x2 GS truck in use by the LRDG. They received 25 of these in December 1941 and used them as so-called pilot cars:



A 1940 model 1311X3 in use by a British Army convoy (not LRDG) on their way back from Kufra returning to Wadi:

Source: https://www.fjexpeditions.com/frameset/GJMostert.htm

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Fliegel Jerzerniczky’s webpage has fascinating stories and photos about his travels in the desert, read more about the The Kufra Convoys here: http://www.fjexpeditions.com/frameset/convoys.htm

He found the remains of one of these Chevrolets:

A short distance south of the previous wreck, there is another one which is not firmly identified. The wooden platform gives it away as a Chevrolet 1311x3 15cwt patrol car, with an added machine gun mount on the front left. A few of this model were used by the LRDG from late 1941 as the early patrol car (alongside the 'standard' 30 cwt 1322x2 which had a full metal body), but also by the SDF as a pilot car for the Convoys. The location of the wreck is very close to where the convoys had to round the dunes to the east of the Gilf Kebir to be able to enter Wadi Wassa, the northern route through the Gilf Kebir, however the easiest route from Cairo to Kufra would have also been along this way. There is no evidence that the SDF pilot cars had mounted machine guns, and there is a good match with photos of the LRDG 1311x3 staff car, making this wreck the only likely candidate for a 'real' LRDG vehicle aside the abandoned LRDG Rhodesia CMP Ford near Ain Dalla.



Arrows on first photo point to the diagnostic features: machine gun mount and condenser tank, both modifications standard on LRDG vehicles (but condenser tank was also used by SDF pilot cars, as they were based on the LRDG vehicles). Second photo shows vehicle complete with mounted Vickers machine gun (covered).

[Mike K]

I have two of the 1940 Chev 113" wb light trucks these Indian models are based on. There is probably enough info to build a replica . Would be a easier project to build , the Aust. GMH style ute body is a nightmare of a thing with a complicated wooden frame and curved outer metal skin panels. A 1941 115" chassis would be a possible Indian bodied project too, enough of these models around. Tim Vibert did a similar conversion many years ago..to a 41 model, he used 13" wheels from a agricultural wheel business dealer , 900-13" tyres. I recall Tim driving the Chev to a club XMAS do at Ian Ledwidge's place , 1980's. With Tims Chev , he kept the hardtop but removed the doors , looked like a desert buggy.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I have two of the 1940 Chev 113" wb light trucks these Indian models are based on. There is probably enough info to build a replica . Would be a easier project to build , the Aust. GMH style ute body is a nightmare of a thing with a complicated wooden frame and curved outer metal skin panels. A 1941 115" chassis would be a possible Indian bodied project too, enough of these models around. Tim Vibert did a similar conversion many years ago..to a 41 model, he used 13" wheels from a agricultural wheel business dealer , 900-13" tyres. I recall Tim driving the Chev to a club XMAS do at Ian Ledwidge's place , 1980's. With Tims Chev , he kept the hardtop but removed the doors , looked like a desert buggy.

Mike, was pondering over this with Bob Carriere who has plans to build a repro LRDG truck. From what I can see these Indian Pattern 15-cwt bodies had bascially the same dimensions as the No1 Australian body, and were very similar in construction. There certainly are differences, but pictures of the Indian Pattern body and dimensional and construction drawings of the No1 Australian body should be very helpful in building a replica body.

The Indian Pattern body was used on the 15-cwt CMP truck as well:



No1 Australian body:

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Fliegel Jerzerniczky’s (...) found the remains of one of these Chevrolets:

Here are to more pictures I found, courtesy of Raouf ElHusseiny on Flickr during his El-Gilf El-Kebir Expedition:

[Mike K]

Thanks Hanno. I notice the width of the side boards does differ on these bodies, some are very wide boards while others ate not so wide

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

Thanks Hanno. I notice the width of the side boards does differ on these bodies, some are very wide boards while others ate not so wide

Mike, I think that may be due to the batches of timber at hand when the bodies were built?

[Bob Carriere]

Thanks for thinking of me guys.

Everyone here is surviving the Covid bug as best we can..... easier to do as I live in a rural area away from crowds and there is room to go for a walk without seeing anyone and never leave the property. However, the whole issue with extensive news coverage does drag you down after a while. Never had cabin fever during Spring time but here we go. Spring here as been ideal, with no snow precipitation during the whole month of March....... but I do miss the ability to drive to the village and pickup some nuts and bolts, etc. working alone in the fresh Spring air is nice but not has pleasant as having some one else around to chit chat,compare notes, swap ideas and gets outright boring after a while.

Nonetheless, Rob and Grant have dropped in and we did chat, at a socially ans scientifically approved distance and we have 95% completed our long desired "rotisserie" that will allow me to install one of by better, out of 3,
2B1 cargo box for a thorough revitalization. The one targeted has a very good floor, underpinning and the fender wells in place..... the rest will need surgical interventions and repairs. We will aim to do it has accurately as possible and being able to rotate the whole cargo box any which way will great simplify repairing panels with new steel.

I will later this week have pictures of the new "rotisserie" which was co built and co designed with Grant and strong enough to to handle the weight of CMP and eventually LRDG.

Can not pass the opportunity to rant and lament the price of steel since the Covid crisis........ some parts (TSC in particular) is not publishing a sales brochure until the stores are allowed to go wide open.....so buying bulk bolts is $6.00 a pound instead of the $2/95 sales price..... new steel is going up every time the local fabricator places a new order...... a 10 foot section of 2.5 x 2.5 in. 1/4 in. thick trailer receiver tube is now $10.60....last fall around $5.00..... and deliveries are sporadic based on whenever they get an order for the Ottawa area.........so building the "rotisserie" entirely out of 1/4 inch thick 2x2 and 2.5x2.5 has been much more than I expected.

Now to the LRDG the mud as now dried and I can now gather all the various frames in one place so I can compare frames, conditions, size, etc.......

I still have concerns about building the smaller version with a "Indian" wooden box due to the requirement to consider from the outset the need for sheltered storage as the wood components will not last long in Canadian hot/cold/dry/wet weather but.........considering the price of steel for a whole cargo box it maybe the way to go.

I have most of the drive train components, fresh rebuilt engine, spare tranny, plenty of rear ends to choose from and the following chassis..

A fully restored 1937 Chev one ton frame, brakes, linings, bearings all done sitting on original 16 inch Chev truck frame.... car style rims with drop center and a car type brake system........ a 1940 Chev cab would fit beautifully but it is a 1937 One ton GE model, 122 1/4 wheel base with 14" in. brake drums .... so slightly longer. The Good Year diamond threads all agri. weather tires would fit nicely.

I also have a 1940 1533 1.5 ton truck with cab ( long box is shot) but with complete drive train that would need a total overhaul....with enclosed driveshaft tube........ now this has the proper size wheel base......currently shod on 7.50 balloon 20 inch tire/rims that could be replaced with the axles from the spare C15 and that would allow me to use readily available CMP rims and fully mounted set of 900x 16 Michelin tires......

The I also have a 1942 Maple Leaf 2 ton complete frame/power train that could be made into the Canadain/Windsor made LRDG.....
...and finally access to a 1942?? complete frame with CMP shock absorber and factory frame flat steel plate reinforcement attached.

So pondering is an issue.......

One thing is sure....there are none of the above real LRDG in Canada to copy from........ and right now the lighter "Indian" pattern with the darn wooden box is mighty attractive and would be UNIQUE even if 7 inches longer than the original............

That leaves me at the mercy of what information is collectively available from existing Indian model....and the similarly built Australian NO 1 model.......pictures.... measurements...... etc.

The cargo box looks fairly simple manufacturing construction based on available angle iron or U shaped channel, some flat steel...... and lots of wood.

Has anyone got the pertinent information for the box .....or ever built one?

Would be nice to get the board thickness, width and length .....could get underpinning ideas from the AEBD manual and try a local saw mill for a price quote.....lots of good hard white ash tree wood available as they all died in the last Chinese tree virus....... Once properly soaked with Clear POR 15 they should be almost water tight.....then primed and sand coloured top coat.

PS...... from the length of this email one could assume that "isolation at home" as had an effect on me!!!!!!!!