Chevrolet 1311X3 15-cwt 4x2 GS truck

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Fliegel Jerzerniczky’s webpage has fascinating stories and photos about his travels in the desert, read more about the The Kufra Convoys here: http://www.fjexpeditions.com/frameset/convoys.htm

He found the remains of one of these Chevrolets:

A short distance south of the previous wreck, there is another one which is not firmly identified. The wooden platform gives it away as a Chevrolet 1311x3 15cwt patrol car, with an added machine gun mount on the front left. A few of this model were used by the LRDG from late 1941 as the early patrol car (alongside the 'standard' 30 cwt 1322x2 which had a full metal body), but also by the SDF as a pilot car for the Convoys. The location of the wreck is very close to where the convoys had to round the dunes to the east of the Gilf Kebir to be able to enter Wadi Wassa, the northern route through the Gilf Kebir, however the easiest route from Cairo to Kufra would have also been along this way. There is no evidence that the SDF pilot cars had mounted machine guns, and there is a good match with photos of the LRDG 1311x3 staff car, making this wreck the only likely candidate for a 'real' LRDG vehicle aside the abandoned LRDG Rhodesia CMP Ford near Ain Dalla.
Pict2233.jpg p2235.jpg p2236.jpg


Arrows on first photo point to the diagnostic features: machine gun mount and condenser tank, both modifications standard on LRDG vehicles (but condenser tank was also used by SDF pilot cars, as they were based on the LRDG vehicles). Second photo shows vehicle complete with mounted Vickers machine gun (covered).

LRDG_1311x3_1.jpg LRDG_1311x3_2.jpg

[Mike K]

I have two of the 1940 Chev 113" wb light trucks these Indian models are based on. There is probably enough info to build a replica . Would be a easier project to build , the Aust. GMH style ute body is a nightmare of a thing with a complicated wooden frame and curved outer metal skin panels. A 1941 115" chassis would be a possible Indian bodied project too, enough of these models around. Tim Vibert did a similar conversion many years ago..to a 41 model, he used 13" wheels from a agricultural wheel business dealer , 900-13" tyres. I recall Tim driving the Chev to a club XMAS do at Ian Ledwidge's place , 1980's. With Tims Chev , he kept the hardtop but removed the doors , looked like a desert buggy.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

I have two of the 1940 Chev 113" wb light trucks these Indian models are based on. There is probably enough info to build a replica . Would be a easier project to build , the Aust. GMH style ute body is a nightmare of a thing with a complicated wooden frame and curved outer metal skin panels. A 1941 115" chassis would be a possible Indian bodied project too, enough of these models around. Tim Vibert did a similar conversion many years ago..to a 41 model, he used 13" wheels from a agricultural wheel business dealer , 900-13" tyres. I recall Tim driving the Chev to a club XMAS do at Ian Ledwidge's place , 1980's. With Tims Chev , he kept the hardtop but removed the doors , looked like a desert buggy.

Mike, was pondering over this with Bob Carriere who has plans to build a repro LRDG truck. From what I can see these Indian Pattern 15-cwt bodies had bascially the same dimensions as the No1 Australian body, and were very similar in construction. There certainly are differences, but pictures of the Indian Pattern body and dimensional and construction drawings of the No1 Australian body should be very helpful in building a replica body.

The Indian Pattern body was used on the 15-cwt CMP truck as well:



No1 Australian body:

[Bob Carriere]

Thanks for thinking of me guys.

Everyone here is surviving the Covid bug as best we can..... easier to do as I live in a rural area away from crowds and there is room to go for a walk without seeing anyone and never leave the property. However, the whole issue with extensive news coverage does drag you down after a while. Never had cabin fever during Spring time but here we go. Spring here as been ideal, with no snow precipitation during the whole month of March....... but I do miss the ability to drive to the village and pickup some nuts and bolts, etc. working alone in the fresh Spring air is nice but not has pleasant as having some one else around to chit chat,compare notes, swap ideas and gets outright boring after a while.

Nonetheless, Rob and Grant have dropped in and we did chat, at a socially ans scientifically approved distance and we have 95% completed our long desired "rotisserie" that will allow me to install one of by better, out of 3,
2B1 cargo box for a thorough revitalization. The one targeted has a very good floor, underpinning and the fender wells in place..... the rest will need surgical interventions and repairs. We will aim to do it has accurately as possible and being able to rotate the whole cargo box any which way will great simplify repairing panels with new steel.

I will later this week have pictures of the new "rotisserie" which was co built and co designed with Grant and strong enough to to handle the weight of CMP and eventually LRDG.

Can not pass the opportunity to rant and lament the price of steel since the Covid crisis........ some parts (TSC in particular) is not publishing a sales brochure until the stores are allowed to go wide open.....so buying bulk bolts is $6.00 a pound instead of the $2/95 sales price..... new steel is going up every time the local fabricator places a new order...... a 10 foot section of 2.5 x 2.5 in. 1/4 in. thick trailer receiver tube is now $10.60....last fall around $5.00..... and deliveries are sporadic based on whenever they get an order for the Ottawa area.........so building the "rotisserie" entirely out of 1/4 inch thick 2x2 and 2.5x2.5 has been much more than I expected.

Now to the LRDG the mud as now dried and I can now gather all the various frames in one place so I can compare frames, conditions, size, etc.......

I still have concerns about building the smaller version with a "Indian" wooden box due to the requirement to consider from the outset the need for sheltered storage as the wood components will not last long in Canadian hot/cold/dry/wet weather but.........considering the price of steel for a whole cargo box it maybe the way to go.

I have most of the drive train components, fresh rebuilt engine, spare tranny, plenty of rear ends to choose from and the following chassis..

A fully restored 1937 Chev one ton frame, brakes, linings, bearings all done sitting on original 16 inch Chev truck frame.... car style rims with drop center and a car type brake system........ a 1940 Chev cab would fit beautifully but it is a 1937 One ton GE model, 122 1/4 wheel base with 14" in. brake drums .... so slightly longer. The Good Year diamond threads all agri. weather tires would fit nicely.

I also have a 1940 1533 1.5 ton truck with cab ( long box is shot) but with complete drive train that would need a total overhaul....with enclosed driveshaft tube........ now this has the proper size wheel base......currently shod on 7.50 balloon 20 inch tire/rims that could be replaced with the axles from the spare C15 and that would allow me to use readily available CMP rims and fully mounted set of 900x 16 Michelin tires......

The I also have a 1942 Maple Leaf 2 ton complete frame/power train that could be made into the Canadain/Windsor made LRDG.....
...and finally access to a 1942?? complete frame with CMP shock absorber and factory frame flat steel plate reinforcement attached.

So pondering is an issue.......

One thing is sure....there are none of the above real LRDG in Canada to copy from........ and right now the lighter "Indian" pattern with the darn wooden box is mighty attractive and would be UNIQUE even if 7 inches longer than the original............

That leaves me at the mercy of what information is collectively available from existing Indian model....and the similarly built Australian NO 1 model.......pictures.... measurements...... etc.

The cargo box looks fairly simple manufacturing construction based on available angle iron or U shaped channel, some flat steel...... and lots of wood.

Has anyone got the pertinent information for the box .....or ever built one?

Would be nice to get the board thickness, width and length .....could get underpinning ideas from the AEBD manual and try a local saw mill for a price quote.....lots of good hard white ash tree wood available as they all died in the last Chinese tree virus....... Once properly soaked with Clear POR 15 they should be almost water tight.....then primed and sand coloured top coat.

PS...... from the length of this email one could assume that "isolation at home" as had an effect on me!!!!!!!!

[David Dunlop]

You have quite a good selection of frames there, Bob. If this lockdown lasts long enough, you could probably end up building a complete LRD Group of vehicles! The only thing missing would be the sand dunes!

Stay safe,

David

[Grant Bowker]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Can not pass the opportunity to rant and lament the price of steel since the Covid crisis........ some parts (TSC in particular) is not publishing a sales brochure until the stores are allowed to go wide open.....so buying bulk bolts is $6.00 a pound instead of the $2/95 sales price..... new steel is going up every time the local fabricator places a new order...... a 10 foot section of 2.5 x 2.5 in. 1/4 in. thick trailer receiver tube is now $10.60....last fall around $5.00..... and deliveries are sporadic based on whenever they get an order for the Ottawa area.........so building the "rotisserie" entirely out of 1/4 inch thick 2x2 and 2.5x2.5 has been much more than I expected.

At the same time that the price of new steel is up, even without much manufacturing demand to push the price up, the local price we could get for scrap (if we were so "irresponsible" as to load, transport and sell it to the local scrappies) has dropped to $40/tonne. Get less when we sell, pay more when we buy. It reminds me of the movie quote "greed is good", it looks like greed at work although in this case the good doesn't flow to Bob.....

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

Thanks for thinking of me guys.

Everyone here is surviving the Covid bug as best we can..... easier to do as I live in a rural area away from crowds and there is room to go for a walk without seeing anyone and never leave the property. However, the whole issue with extensive news coverage does drag you down after a while. Never had cabin fever during Spring time but here we go. Spring here as been ideal, with no snow precipitation during the whole month of March....... but I do miss the ability to drive to the village and pickup some nuts and bolts, etc. working alone in the fresh Spring air is nice but not has pleasant as having some one else around to chit chat,compare notes, swap ideas and gets outright boring after a while.

Hello Bob, indeed these are strange times. Recently I read an article that especially for men with their "hanging around together" types of friendship (you know, twirling spanners and drinking beer) are impacted more by the social distancing than (online) "chatty" female friendships. Hang in there, it will be over sometime soon. Whenever I feel locked up, I think of Anne Frank and the thousands of other people who had to live in hiding for many years with the fear of being sent to a concentration camp if caught....

Send my regards to Rob and Grant - maybe this desert truck will give you the inspration for a sorely missed "Hammond Barn" series of threads

[Mike K]

hi bob

There should be a easier way of doing a 15 cwt Indian pattern type vehicle. There must be plenty of 1941 to 47 Chev 1/2 ton pickups around in your country , these have the correct 115" wb for a 1941 Indian but the snag is you would need the RHD components . Used to be a number of those 41 to 47 Chev utes around here in Aust., RHD , maybe somebody has one that is only good for parts.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bob Carriere

I have most of the drive train components, fresh rebuilt engine, spare tranny, plenty of rear ends to choose from and the following chassis..

A fully restored 1937 Chev one ton frame, brakes, linings, bearings all done sitting on original 16 inch Chev truck frame.... car style rims with drop center and a car type brake system........ a 1940 Chev cab would fit beautifully but it is a 1937 One ton GE model, 122 1/4 wheel base with 14" in. brake drums .... so slightly longer. The Good Year diamond threads all agri. weather tires would fit nicely.

I also have a 1940 1533 1.5 ton truck with cab ( long box is shot) but with complete drive train that would need a total overhaul....with enclosed driveshaft tube........ now this has the proper size wheel base......currently shod on 7.50 balloon 20 inch tire/rims that could be replaced with the axles from the spare C15 and that would allow me to use readily available CMP rims and fully mounted set of 900x 16 Michelin tires......

The I also have a 1942 Maple Leaf 2 ton complete frame/power train that could be made into the Canadain/Windsor made LRDG.....
...and finally access to a 1942?? complete frame with CMP shock absorber and factory frame flat steel plate reinforcement attached.

So pondering is an issue.......

I would applaud it if you'd set out to make a replica of the Indian Pattern Chevrolet 1311X3. As none exist (except for the bare bones left in the North African desert), it is infinitely rarer than the 1533X2 which has been replicated many times in every major time zone.

Plus the 1311X3 is a unique mix of US, Canadian and other Commonwealth bits ‘n bobs. Of a handy size, it would be easy to drive, work on and store in a container at the Hammond Barn.

Two topics need researching, which is what MLU Forum is for:

1) Chassis: I am no expert on Chevrolets but going by the info available here, in Bart Vanderveen’s books and the sites listed below, here’s what I found:

1. Model 1311 denotes a Chevrolet Commercial 1/2-Ton Chassis with flat-face cowl.
2. The X3 suffix denotes 'INDIA CKD', i.e. export to India in Completely Knocked Down form, in this case a chassis with flat face cowl.
3. In Wheels & Tracks HMVF Directory Bart Vanderveen writes India imported 1939 and later Canadian ½-ton chassis with right-hand drive, which were assembled and bodied in India.
4. David Hayward listed supply contract S/M 2238, which was for 1,200 ea. 15-cwt 4x2 115” W.B. Chevrolets (most likely our 1941 model 1311X3).
5. So, the 1311X3 was assembled in India from 1939 and later chassis, which would include:
   • 1939 Model JC and 1940 Model KC with 113-1/2” w.b. and (virtually) identical front end
   • 1941 Model AK with 115” w.b. with the later “waterfall” style front end (model 1941-1946)

> From your stock of Chevrolet parts, could you piece one of these together?


2) Body: I have some more pics of the surviving body coming up, stay tuned.

Sources (accessed 28-apr-2020):
http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/models/index.htm
https://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-...tion-kits.html
https://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/i...ies/index.html

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

I would applaud it if you'd set out to make a replica of the Indian Pattern Chevrolet 1311X3.

I would applaud it too. There are probably some RHD ones around here in NZ with the correct wheel base.

[Mike K]

That 1939 red GMH bodied ute. The present owner found it unrestored in a shed up near Glenrowan , its the original tub on it , original wood frame and skin in like new condition. Pic was taken at the Warragul old wares show a few years back.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

One more from another thread - click on the "view post" logo viewpost.gif to go there:

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

This is a interesting pic. What size are the wheels on this 41 model ?
53257575_2367705179920605_6432069312260866048_o.jpg

[Bob Carriere]

..... the elusive 18 inch rims????? they are using the split rims with the standard GM bolt pattern..... a little easier with more steel to work with than a 16 inch rim....

My best opinion!!!!!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Stephen Paternoster wrote:

Amazing how they coped in desert my great grandfather was out in Middle East from 1940 to 1943 he was in Kings Dragoon Guards.

B041456C-7D2F-44DF-8C66-DC46BD9379BF.jpeg 6856D19B-0BCC-41EA-83A5-370DD8FB58DD.jpeg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Fliegel Jerzerniczky’s (...) found the remains of one of these Chevrolets:

Here are to more pictures I found, courtesy of Raouf ElHusseiny on Flickr during his El-Gilf El-Kebir Expedition:

5319788022_19c5c84e12_k.jpg 5316307027_fad58443d5_k.jpg

[Mike K]

Thanks Hanno. I notice the width of the side boards does differ on these bodies, some are very wide boards while others ate not so wide

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

Thanks Hanno. I notice the width of the side boards does differ on these bodies, some are very wide boards while others ate not so wide

Mike, I think that may be due to the batches of timber at hand when the bodies were built?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

More 1311X3's in use with the LRDG:
276164892_10158635833668148_8769266537518071239_n.jpg

Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1565...8270888236561/

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Some more in use with the Indian Army

16729002_1565209500173581_8375354372582850181_n.jpg 16649033_1565209480173583_4843835045884755149_n.jpg 16729446_1565209506840247_9140075306948079254_n.png

Source: https://www.facebook.com/Indian-Mili...65209500173581

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Some more in use with the Indian Army

Let's not forget the Chevys of the Indian Long Range Patrol

1139_02_40_456.jpg