Bren AA mount: help and more info needed

[James Gosling]

This picture is captioned as a Canadian designed anti aircraft mount in use with troops near Calais 1944.

I have several questions I'm trying to get answers for:

Was this version of the Motley mount Canadian made?

Can anyone help with further info and pictures of this mount being used so late in the war?

There are many pictures from earlier in the war of Motley mounts on Cab12 15cwt trucks but is there any evidence as to what model it was mounted on by 1944?

Thanks in advance for any help

James

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Helo James,

That is an intriguing photo, would you have a better scan and/or source for it?

I find it hard to believe to see a Motley mount in action in NW Europe, seeing that the later and more potent "Polsten trucks" were quickly relegated to other duties once the Allies gained air superiority.

But one never knows which equipment the Canadians held back unofficially and dragged across the Channel!

[James Gosling]

Hi Hanno,

I was quite surprised as well when I saw it, the picture was originally posted years ago by Cletrac in a long thread on the Motley mounts. It was published in the William Gregg Profiles book in the section other anti aircraft weapons on the LAAT page and the caption is as previously mentioned.
I'm not sure when this MK of mount dates from or what MK it is, unlike most of the other types it does not have the counterbalancing springs.
I have taken another shot of the picture so hopefully its better and also put on another picture of the same mount but mounted on an unknown truck.

James

[James Gosling]

I have just checked the census number 4255028 and that falls under numbers allocated to the Canadian army overseas upto 11th July 1943. So it is a Canadian truck.

[Jordan Baker]

This looks be the same type of mount.

https://www.militaryimages.net/media...a-mount.13424/

http://hmvf.co.uk/topic/738-british-motley-bren-mount/

[maple_leaf_eh]

Would this be the origins of the slightly derisive term, a Motley crew?

Never the less, that is a neat piece of equipment to put as much .303 BR into the sky as possible. The drawback of course is the slow cyclic rate of the BREN.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hi James,

As you can see from the info posted above, it is the later Mounting, Straddle, Bren, AA. I had the earlier "over the shoulder" mount in mind when I first replied.

Googling this term I came across the attached picture from a February 1944 War Office publication "Identification list for the mountings Straddle AA Bren and .303 Browning". Clicking on the link however, led me to an eBay listing for the Bren 1948 Light Machine Gun Training Manual (Canadian) (no connection to seller). I could not see the attached picture there and I doubt this contraption was kept in service after WW2. However, it may have just survived in service long enough to by put into use near Calais in the summer of 1944.

Also see the thread Bren LMG mount and scroll down to see the surviving example in the Netherlands Army historical collection.

[James Gosling]

Hi Jordan, yes it is the same type as the one pictured at Duxford.

The schematics are interesting, the right hand one is clearly labelled as a MKV, however the left hand one, the one in question is labelled MK1. Does this refer to the mount or the Bren MK1, it is far more complex than the British MK1 version so could this be a Canadian MK1?

Hanno this might tally with your Canadian pamphlet then?

Another odd thing is that in a former post it was remarked that several of these mounts had come over from Portugal in recent years, a country who received mostly Canadian equipment after the war, Foxs, gun tractors, trucks, Grizzlies etc. so could this mount be Canadian in manufacture? it is certainly different from all the other MKs in not having any counter balance springs.

Any ideas on this? just thinking out loud!!!

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by James Gosling

This picture is captioned as a Canadian designed anti aircraft mount in use with troops near Calais 1944.

.....

Can anyone help with further info and pictures of this mount being used so late in the war?

....

James

The port of Calais was bypassed in the late summer early fall of 1944. It remained in German hands until quite late. As a defended static position, the attackers would have needed to switch tactics. One way to fully invest a resilient enemy would be to keep raining fire into his positions while other elements manoeuver closer. It is possible that the Vickers MMGs were a priority on the sharp end against the main front along the Netherlands and Belgian border, versus a nuisance front at Calais.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXqg-6YKU7Q

[Michael R.]

entomology. . . an earlier ‘Motley’ crew.

[Barry Churcher]

In 1994 Brian , Les and I went to Portsmouth on our way to Normandy for the 50th. A gentleman there graciously let me spend about two hours in the back of his truck carefully getting detailed measurements and photos of his Motley Mount that came from Portugal. He said they were made in Canada but there was no identifier on it. I probably drove Les and Brian crazy going back all the time to check this thing out. I made two copies of it with the only difference being they were the mature model with the main pipe frame being a little longer for the tummy. It was just too cramped. The one in the photo with my daughter Dawn is the prototype and you can see the main pipe was made in sections to try and get the angles right. The second one was all one piece.
Dawn's picture is in the back of Mel Norwick's 8cwt and I think Hanno has a better photo of that truck. I need some ideas of what I could use for a rubber eye piece.
Barry

[David Dunlop]

Barry.

Are there any rubber boots out there in Vehicleland, for fitting over cables and levers, that would be a suitable size and could be trimmed to work?

David

[James Gosling]

Barry,

The rubber eye piece is probably the same as on any tank sight. My Polsten was fitted with one and in the old days of MV shows you would often see them on stalls for sale over here.

Interesting that the owner of the Bedford who I think is/was Colin Brooks said it was made in Canada. This could be the reason it is listed as a MK1 but bares no similarity to the British MK1.

Is there any museum or army organisation in Canada who might have more information?

Thanks James

[Barry Churcher]

David I have been watching "boots" every time we change front end parts but have found nothing acceptable at this point. The automotive stuff is a little flimsy and usually tapered. I need something barrel shaped that I could adapt. I currently just use a tie rod end cup but it looks hokey. I could adapt my sight to accept a rubber from a tank or artillery sight as James has suggested but I hesitate to rob a sight and you never see them for sale loose here.
Thanks for the reply.

James I doubt if there is one in Canada but I would love to see it if there is. Years ago I contacted all the museums I could find in Canada regarding information or photos and never got a positive reply. I was told once they were made here by CCM (Canada Cycle and Motor) but I have no proof of that. Any history of CCM online says they made gun parts during the war but doesn't go into detail. I know the War Museum in Ottawa didn't have one unless one has been acquired recently. The War Museum has a German equivalent which is far superior. Collectors Source has a sight for sale and it is broad arrow marked so possibly the mounts are only English produced.

Cheers, Barry



http://www.collectorssource.com/medi...motley_aa8.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

James,

You may want to see if this book https://servicepub.com/product/secre...-canadian-army has some info on this mounting?

"Anti aircraft projects range from a quadruple Bren gun mounting which was overly complicated to a Canadian 20mm cannon on towed and lorry mountings..."

[James Gosling]

Thanks Barry and Hanno,

The extra information helps. I does make sense that they used a cycle firm, you can see the similarities in some of the parts. I know of four of these mounts, one at Duxford, one in the Netherlands and two in private hands in the UK.

James

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Barry,

Try looking up some folding bellows used for flow equipment, who knows what you will find there.

E.g. https://shop.eriks.nl/en/rubber-prod...parts-bellows/

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Barry. Are there any rubber boots out there in Vehicleland, for fitting over cables and levers, that would be a suitable size and could be trimmed to work?

[Barry Churcher]

Thanks Hanno. A couple of bellows on there look promising.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

I made photos of the pages on "The Mounted Bren" from The Bren Gun Saga by Dugelby for research purposes.

No mention is made of the manufacturing of these in Canada. Despite the fact that this book is highly sought after (wow!), the information in this chapter certainly doesn't seem to be the final say on this topic. It doesn't differentiate very well between the various types of mounts that were made. Here's hoping someone can add to this.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

I made photos of the pages on "The Mounted Bren" from The Bren Gun Saga by Dugelby for research purposes.

Last two pages on Motley mounts:

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Bren brass catcher.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Reportedly this picture was made in 1941

[Michael R.]

Pre dates the ‘air-soft’ training.

Can anyone else hear the gunner calling out the shots?

[Jordan Baker]

Here are the rest of the pictures from the series. Taken April 1943

[David Dunlop]

I think the mount shown in the latest photos from Jordan might also be the ones used on the No. 1 Armoured Train, built in the CNR Transcona Shops in late 1942.

Attached photo of the two mounts is from Roger Lucy's book on the train.

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

In an earlier thread I posted a picture of a Motley mount in the back of a Dutch Army Ford WOT2 truck in Normandy, August 1944.

The scan in the archive has been updated and you can now zoom in on the picture for some great detail - click on the source link:

Beschrijving: Koninklijke Nederlandse Brigade Prinses Irene.
Landing in Normandië [luchtafweergeschut gemonteerd op een vrachtwagen. Een soldaat wast zijn haren]
Datum augustus 1944
Locatie Frankrijk, Normandië
Nummer toegang 2.24.01.03
Bestanddeelnummer 934-9669


Source: http://proxy.handle.net/10648/ad84e3...8-003048976d84

[James Gosling]

Thanks Hanno, great picture of the right mount!

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Barry Churcher

David I have been watching "boots" every time we change front end parts but have found nothing acceptable at this point. The automotive stuff is a little flimsy and usually tapered. I need something barrel shaped that I could adapt.

How about a portion of the boot that goes over a motorcycle shock. Here is a blue one (I would recommend black though) next to the one from a gun "telescope sighting no42.
It does appear the original is the eyecup from the telescope, sighting as used on artillery and tanks.

[Niels V]

With regards to the " tank/Arty sight boot" if there was enough demand, e.g. 100 pieces. It should be possible to have some made, as it was done with the gear shift gator for Fords.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Niels V

With regards to the " tank/Arty sight boot" if there was enough demand, e.g. 100 pieces. It should be possible to have some made, as it was done with the gear shift gator for Fords.

I would be in for a half dozen. The museum might also be in for a similar batch.