Sherman Crab T147955 “Avalon” Overloon. Regiment? Damage?

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Well, I would have preferred if you had asked me first, than at the very least I could have added a watermark.

Sorry about that Watermarks are not something I normally bother with, so I didn’t stop to think other people might want to.

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Also at least one of the pics is the same....

You’re right, I failed to spot that it was already in your post.

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

If the brace on the right side is bent, and relates to the flail drive

Are you referring to the same brace I was? Because if so, that isn’t related to the flail drive but is a normal structural brace in Shermans, and I meant the bend in it in line with a penetration, which looks like it was made by the round coming through the side.

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Be interesting to know if there is enough energy in an anti personnel mine to break a tank track link and cause little other damage.

Some can, but it depends on the type of mine, the type of vehicle and probably exactly where it blows up under the track and wheels. Impossible to tell, I’d say, without knowing all of these variables.

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

I think the brace was either damaged by rounds coming through the sides, or from an internal explosion of ammunition.

You mean a penetrating projectile whose HE charge detonated, right? Because the interior of this Sherman looks too good for one whose 75 mm ammo had detonated. (Also: there was no 75 mm ammo storage in this area of a Crab, because the rounds went through the opening in the brace, meaning the flail drive chain case was in the way.)

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Would you know if the Crab was intended to operate with a reduced ammunition load for the 75mm compared to the standard Sherman

See above: the right front ammo rack had to be removed to make room for the flail drive. Here is the right hull front interior on a restored M4A4:


(source)

The big white box just in front of the brace, with the silver-grey box stuck to its side, is an ammo rack for 75 mm rounds. You can just see the round retention clips through the opening in the brace. This whole rack had to be removed to make room for the flail drive, which goes through a rectangular hole cut in the hull side just in front of that brace.

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

I am just not sure how much extra weight the Flail System added to a Sherman

About two tons, I think.

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

nor how much internal space was lost for the modifications, nor what, if anything was given up to make the modification work.

Quite a bit, though of course the interior isn’t exactly spacious to begin with anyway. I built a model of a Crab with a partial interior (which I’d never have been able to do without Alex’s help, BTW), and was surprised at how much room that chain case takes up.

[David Dunlop]

Thanks for the photo, Jakko. Looks like the co-drivers position was also sacrificed with the flail installation, or got even more cramped than it otherwise was already!

David

[Alex van de Wetering]

Looks like the co-drivers position was also sacrificed with the flail installation, or got even more cramped than it otherwise was already!

David, I am afraid it was the latter....thankfully he didn't have a .30 cramping the space even more (ball mount was there, but no .30 as it's behind the static part of the flail), but the chain case was right behind the co-drivers seat and above the escape hatch! See the pictures attached.

Also attached is a picture showing the flange in more detail, as mentioned in David Herberts post......and a picture of the 75mm showing damage to the shield.

Last but not least is a picture of the Bovington Crab showing one of the covering plates around the hole in the side armor, and also the spring fixing with the angle iron. I could't find any traces of the covering plates ever fitted to Avalon. pictures source:https://www.recomonkey.com/Land-Plat...rman-Crab-Mk-I

Sorry about that Watermarks are not something I normally bother with, so I didn’t stop to think other people might want to.

No worries mate, but next time I have to report you to the MLU police

David; The Overloon museum is in a wooded area, but right next to the village centre; Back in the days when all exhibits were outside, the first exhibits were right behind the fence. Based on memory I think Avalon and Cookie were about 300 meters from the entrance. Next time I'll visit I will see if I can match the surroundings of the early pictures to the museum terrain, but as mentioned earlier the early pictures are said to have been taken in the museum rather than the battlefield.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Looks like the co-drivers position was also sacrificed with the flail installation, or got even more cramped than it otherwise was already!

The chain case fits behind the seat, just (though that could of course partly be due to my modelling skills, or lack thereof ). As Alex says, at least the bow machine gun was deleted, because the whole flail mechanism and blast shield are in the way.

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

That link to photobucket may not show up on all browers.

I couldn’t find any better, so I decided to link to it despite the huge banner over it. The weird thing is, earlier this year when building that Crab model, I had found that same site with better photos. I suppose they revamped it (it looks different than I remember) and moved the photos or something.

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

See my web page on Adrian Barrell's M4A4 restoration with interior photos here: http://www.mapleleafup.nl/sherman_sn5271/index.html

Thanks, much clearer that way

[David Herbert]

Regarding the bow machine gun, I was surprised to see that the mount is still present in Avalon - it is visible in one of the photos in post #29 - compare with the photo of Adrian Barrel's gun tank in post #45. I thought that the ball mounts were removed and the hole plated over or plugged but not in this case. There would be good reason for keeping the hull gunner as a crew member as another pair of hands when maintenance or repairs were required (or cooking or making camp).

As David Dunlop mentioned, the gap between the hole in the hull side and the chain case would have allowed vast amounts of dust to be sucked into the tank so I think that the crew would have very quickly plugged it with anything available - I have heard of socks being used to plug bullet holes, making the crew feel much safer as they couldn't see out then. The engine cooling system is designed in such a way that it sucks air from the tank interior through the propeller shaft tunnel and also the oil coolers on the bulkhead, then through the fan and the main radiator, past the engine and out of the back of the tank. This clears gun fumes from inside the tank but if hatches are open there is a huge flow of dusty or cold air into the tank. This can make head out driving quite unpleasant.

David

[David Dunlop]

Good Afternoon, Alex.

Do you have time for some ‘Wednesday Wisdoms’ from me before the ‘Wednesday Wines’ bell starts ringing here for me?

I noticed in your Post 31 you had listed your National Archive file findings for 1944 War Diaries of two of the 79th Armoured Division Regiments, but you had not listed anything for the 1st L and B Horse.

I am not sure if you are aware of this little wrinkle, or not, but even though the 1st Lothians and Border Horse are a Regiment within the British Army, they are in fact, a Scottish Regiment, headquartered in Edinborough. Consequently, it is very likely, their Regimental War Diaries for the Second World War are held at the Scottish National Archives, also in Edinborough. I would start any search for the War Diaries with that Archive.

The Regiment has a very long history and with the name ‘Lothians’ as part of their heritage, it is also quite possible their War Diary records could be held at County level archives, giving you three more possible alternate archive sites: East Lothian, Midlothian and West Lothian in Scotland. In any event the Scottish National Archive should be able to redirect you to the proper source.

One other small wrinkle. Make certain when searching, you use the name ‘1st Lothians and Border Horse’. Over the history of the Regiment, the name switched back and forth several times between, 1st Lothians and Border Horse, and 1st Lothians and Border Yeomanry. And on occasion both names were in use at the same time for two different Regiments, sometimes prefixed ‘1st’ and ‘1st’ and sometimes ‘1st’ and ‘2nd’.

Thought I would pass that on to you in case you were not aware.

Now to find my cork screw...

David

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

I thought that the ball mounts were removed and the hole plated over or plugged but not in this case.

The Crab preserved at Westkapelle, Netherlands (the one I’ve been building a model of) also still had its ball mount. Well, until 2018 anyway, when rust caused the shield to fall off. Looking at photos from the late 1940s, so did at least two other Crabs left behind there after the war, but I don’t have pictures of the other three where the MG mount is visible.

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

I noticed in your Post 31 you had listed your National Archive file findings for 1944 War Diaries of two of the 79th Armoured Division Regiments, but you had not listed anything for the 1st L and B Horse.

I’m not Alex, but courtesy of Michel Sabarly, I have a PDF of the 1944 war diaries of 1 Lothians. The words Overloon, Boxmeer and Broekhuizen do not appear in it, a quick ⌘F tells me.

Browsing on to 1 October 1944, it says:

0001hrs. Regt, with C Sqn 22 Dgns under comd, under comd 31 Tk Bde, in sp 3rd (Cdn) Inf Div. Located in area SW of Calais as under:
Tac RHQ - 807699 (Beauregard) Main RHQ & RHQ B Ech - 844583 (Boursin)
A Sqn - 812712 (Bonningues) B Sqn - 819563 (Le Wast)
C Sqn - 760650 (Uzelot) C Sqn 22 Dgns - 847583 (Boursin) Reserve detachment of 264SDS under comd RHQ
B Sec 30 Armd Bde OFP under comd RHQ.
Boursin
Pm. Tac RHQ rejoined Main RHQ. Warned of move to area Cassel/Poperinghe. SW of Calais
Day. RHQ and sqns - recovery and repairs. Rest and refitting.

The regiment spent the next month or so on or near the Belgian coast, which is, at a rough guess, 200+ km away from the Overloon area.

[MicS]

At least two details point to this Crab almost certainly belonging to Westminster Dragoons: firstly, the 79 Armoured Division Formation Sign on the rear is on the right side of the tank, which is a distinctive WD feature; secondly, the name AVALON, if genuine, does not fit the naming patterns of 22 D.
Alex, you mentioned a photo at the Museum showing the name. Did you by any chance copy/photograph it?

Michel

[Alex van de Wetering]

Michel,

I was hoping you would join the discussion! I was just reading your analyses of 22nd Dragoons Crabs in Normandy on ww2talk; very interesting.

Attached is a cutout of the picture I mentioned earlier; I can't show the whole picture, as I don't have the permission to do so. Please let me know what you think....it's hard to read, but I do read "Avalon"....or do I just want to read "Avalon"......?

Thanks for your thoughts on Avalon likely being a Westminster Dragoons tank; I was leaning towards the same thing, but I haven't found the "smoking gun" yet. I have contacted the National Archives for the War Diaries of both Westminster and 22nd Dragoons, but due to the Covid situation things take a bit more time than usual. I was hoping to find the war diaries online, but no luck so far.

Avalon name.jpg Avalon name2.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

See above: the right front ammo rack had to be removed to make room for the flail drive. Here is the right hull front interior on a restored M4A4:


(source)

That link to photobucket may not show up on all browers. See my web page on Adrian Barrell's M4A4 restoration with interior photos here: http://www.mapleleafup.nl/sherman_sn5271/index.html

co_drivers_area.jpg