Sherman Crab T147955 “Avalon” Overloon. Regiment? Damage?

[MicS]

Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers

this flail could be Avalon , look at the mounting position of the track links on the turret , just it still has the cover on the front of the flail drive with 53 and 79th on . But off course there are more tanks with spare links on the turret .

Maurice,

It cannot be AVALON, although the spare track links disposition does look similar. But the tanks have different types of commander's sights, i.e. the blade type sight on the photo with a group of troopers on it, and a vane type on AVALON:
Crab WD - Notes.jpg
AVALON - NationaalArchief2 - Notes.jpg

For more info on these two types, see (as always) the Sherman Minutiae page:
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_m..._variants.html

Michel

[Maurice Donckers]

Yes I see , no weld remains left
But be careful , some turrets (I have 2) have both types mounted .

[Alex van de Wetering]

It cannot be AVALON, although the spare track links disposition does look similar.

Also; it has the Whyman lane marker system, which as far as I know was never fitted to "Avalon". The Westminster Dragoons War diary mentions the first fitment of the Whyman lane marker system on November 13, and on december 29 it reads "jig for fitting Whyman lane markers received and fitting begun".

However, it's still a very interesting picture....it appears on at least 3 websites, so I am not sure where it originates from; I am presuming the picture was taken in 1945, possibly even shortly after the war ended. It also shows that the fitment of the track armour and the storage bins on the hull sides are somewhat similar on Westminster Dragoon crabs.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Some more IWM pictures.

BU 1213
source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205206892
BU 1211
source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205206891

Both pictures are taken on 17 October 1944 near Venray. Again, not Avalon, but I do think these are A Squadron Westminster Dragoons.
It also shows that the tanks weren't yet fitted with the track link armour, which is something I presume was done about half november.....and a very faint number on the side of the turret, of the crab missing part of the armour around the flail gear-case.

[Alex van de Wetering]

B 12028

Here is another fascinating shot that appears in a number of books with different dates and locations.
According to the IWM the picture was taken on 22 november 1944 "east of Beringe". It has "West Dgns" on the back written in pencil.
I wonder if the picture shows A Squadron Crabs again, as the second crab in line has a similar (the same?) configuration of storage boxes on the left hull side that can be seen on the pictures taken in Tilburg.

The war Diary describes A Squadron active near Steeg, which is 10km North-North East of Beringe.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205206478

[MicS]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

B 12028

Here is another fascinating shot that appears in a number of books with different dates and locations.
According to the IWM the picture was taken on 22 november 1944 "east of Beringe". It has "West Dgns" on the back written in pencil.
I wonder if the picture shows A Squadron Crabs again, as the second crab in line has a similar (the same?) configuration of storage boxes on the left hull side that can be seen on the pictures taken in Tilburg.

The war Diary describes A Squadron active near Steeg, which is 10km North-North East of Beringe.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205206478

This storage configuration is typical of the whole of W Dgns, not just of 'A' Sqn. Although the naming system (if any) of W Dgns tanks is still a mystery to me, I would bend towards 'C' Sqn, because next photo (B12029) shows Crab 'CITY O' GLOUCESTER':


Michel

[MicS]

Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering

Some more IWM pictures.

BU 1213
source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205206892
BU 1211
source: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205206891

Both pictures are taken on 17 October 1944 near Venray. Again, not Avalon, but I do think these are A Squadron Westminster Dragoons.
It also shows that the tanks weren't yet fitted with the track link armour, which is something I presume was done about half november.....and a very faint number on the side of the turret, of the crab missing part of the armour around the flail gear-case.

Yes, from the turret number (28, possibly 29) of the Crab in BU1211 this should be 'A' Sqn. Also, the Crab on BU1213 is probably T147892 of 'A' Sqn, listed as 'bogged' in the AFV Cas State dated 30 Nov 44 (see my post #54 above).

Michel

[Alex van de Wetering]

I would bend towards 'C' Sqn, because next photo (B12029) shows Crab 'CITY O' GLOUCESTER':

Good point Michel! I couldn't find a conclusive answer in the war diaries, but hadn't looked at the other pictures in the series.

I note the track armor on these tanks are placed top to bottom, rather than on it's side as seen on Avalon. I wonder if this is just a coincidence, or an actual way to tell the different squadrons apart.

[Alex van de Wetering]

I am still trying to find a picture of Avalon during WW2, before being knocked out (or just after being knocked out). Sadly, the angle of most pictures and the presence of camouflage netting and stowage make it hard to see which is which.

Avalon is somewhat different from most Crabs in that it has a direct vision M4A4 hull, which means the covers for the periscopes are fitted to the hatches rather than fitted on the hull itself. This means that if the hatches are open in a picture, you could possibly determine if a tank is an early direct vision one.
The picture attached shows the difference between the periscope covers layouts. (This is a picture of the London victory parade in 1946 and shows Westminster Dragoons Crab mk2's) .

i996741.jpg
source:https://www.imcdb.org/v996741.html


The other picture attached is a picture that has always fascinated me. Sadly you can't see the hatches, but it does have the same gun mantlet, sight and .30 mount as Avalon..... and I think I can just make out the type of skid on the first bogie...... but it doesn't show an antenna on the right hand side of the hull.....even though you often see Shermans with just the aerial base without the actual antenna fitted.
The picture was taken on D-day, Queen beach (Sword) which is where some tanks of A-Squadron Westminster Dragoons landed. Does anyone know of any more pictures of the same tank....or film footage?
Michel, what are your thoughts on this picture.....Westminster Dragoons?

Screenshot_2020-07-26 D-DAY - BRITISH FORCES DURING THE INVASION OF NORMANDY 6 JUNE 1944.jpg
source:https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/i...ject/205201950