Valcartier Sherman

[Steve Lehman]

Hi gents and ladies:

Hey gents, and ladies: A friend of mine from Dragoon days is trying to find out some information on the Valcartier Sherman, it's outside of hanger 310 of the 12 RBC. The info listed on the IPMS site is M4A2(76)HVSS Sherman. Any photos or history would be fantastic.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Hi Steve, as shared elsewhere, I only have generic info but no history on this specific example:

“Tank, Combat, Full Tracked, 76 mm Gun, M4A2

In 1946 the Royal Canadian Corps was equipped with 300 M4A2(76)W HVSS Shermans, bought from the US for $1,460.00 each. They were used for training only. After being replaced by Centurions, the Shermans were passed down to various Militia regiments.
The Lord Strathcona's Horse Regiment which served in Korea used M4A3(76)W HVSS Shermans supplied by the USA.”

http://www.mapleleafup.nl/g104/cdn.htm

Also see the article at https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldw...herman-easy-8/

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Shermans, bought from the US for $1,460.00 each.

...that's a fair price...I'll take 2...

[MicS]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

...that's a fair price...I'll take 2...

US$1,460 (1946) = $20,895.17 (2021)

See https://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?

Still cheap if in running condition...
https://www.militarytrader.com/milit...a-sherman-tank

[daninnm]

super cheap - even if they don't run

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by MicS

US$1,460 (1946) = $20,895.17 (2021)

See https://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/inflation.php?

Still cheap if in running condition...
https://www.militarytrader.com/milit...a-sherman-tank

Back in 1945 the cost of these was (ref. http://www.mapleleafup.nl/g104/cost.htm):

• M4A2(76)HVSS/T66 $48,029
• M4A2(76)HVSS/T80 $50,928

I guess it was cheaper to give them away for an adminstrative cost than to scrap them. It was the second time the Canadian army bought surplus tanks off the USA on the cheap.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Steve Lehman

Hi gents and ladies:

Hey gents, and ladies: A friend of mine from Dragoon days is trying to find out some information on the Valcartier Sherman, it's outside of hanger 310 of the 12 RBC. The info listed on the IPMS site is M4A2(76)HVSS Sherman. Any photos or history would be fantastic.

Attachment 118173

What can be known? A good place would be to refer him to the Service Publications pamphlet on postwar Shermans published by Clive Law. There was a photo gallery of Shermans by their registration number that Clive maintained. Here is an MLU thread on the list. http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=29323


The acquisition history is well repeated already. What I believe the original questioner wants, is what is its service history? Detective work is required and not necessarily hoping one of us happens to know at the drop of a hat.

[Ed Storey]

Well we do know that it was not used by the TRR in Italy.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Steve

Long time. Hope you're good.

That's a good question ref the M4A2(76)W HVSS Shermans. And the having friends part...that was funny too.

Forum, was there a #(s) that wasn't painted on? Can the 45-78*** CAR be ID'd through hull or turret stamps?

I have to go get eyes on one that's been re-painted a bazillion times and no one has any idea what its number originally was.

regards
Darrell

[David Herbert]

There will be a hull number stamped into the top of a towing eye at the rear and also possibly the front if the front end hasn't been changed. However this is of limited use as I believe that there is no direct relationship between the hull number and the ARN which is what would be used to identify it once in service.

David

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Darrell Zinck

Hi Steve

Long time. Hope you're good.

That's a good question ref the M4A2(76)W HVSS Shermans. And the having friends part...that was funny too.

Forum, was there a #(s) that wasn't painted on? Can the 45-78*** CAR be ID'd through hull or turret stamps?

I have to go get eyes on one that's been re-painted a bazillion times and no one has any idea what its number originally was.

regards
Darrell

I strongly suspect the 12e's Sherman was a pool or turned in example from almost anywhere in Quebec. Heck! It could be an ex Sherbrooke Regiment tank, because I know they were turned in circa 1963. My father took me and my brothers for a family day ride in one; I was hooked on tanks ever since.

[Ed Storey]

Full marks to Le Régiment de Hull for painting their M4A2E8 in the correct markings when so many others do not.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

There will be a hull number stamped into the top of a towing eye at the rear and also possibly the front if the front end hasn't been changed.

Assuming it hasn’t rusted away or been filled with paint in the mean time, of course.

[Darrell Zinck]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

Full marks to Le Régiment de Hull for painting their M4A2E8 in the correct markings when so many others do not.

Attachment 119697

Hi Ed

Agreed. Nice to see.

Is the paint colour correct. Was it a "Bronze Green"?

Can someone tell me what the correct colour is for these M4A2(76)W HVSS Shermans? Does it have a FS#?

regards
Darrell

[Ed Storey]

The Reg de Hull Sherman looks to be painted semi-gloss OD which I believe was correct for the era. Was Bronze Green not used on British vehicles?

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Ed

Thanks for that.

RE bronze green, I think you are correct. Probably just leaked outta my head.

Anyone have an FS#?

regards
Darrell

[Ed Storey]

This is how the Valcartier Sherman looked back in 1984.

[Michael R.]

hopefully when the repaint takes place ... someone can be assigned to reinstall the coaxial 1919A4 Browning.

[David Herbert]

Might that be thought to be too 'war like' ?

David

[Michael R.]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

Might that be thought to be too 'war like' ?
David

unlike you David, so I question if you missed the error ?

[James P]

Originally Posted by Michael R.

hopefully when the repaint takes place ... someone can be assigned to reinstall the coaxial 1919A4 Browning.

Not sure which tank you refer to seems the Hull Sherman is missing the Bow MG poking out its ball mount. Kind of sad state the vehicles at the CWM stripped of there turret mounted MGs or a Lynx with nothing mounted. Go to the Armor Museum at Fort Knox KY or even just drive around the base and it seems every intersection has a monument tank sited there AND mounting welded up MGs to complete the look like they are ready to go to battle.

[Michael R.]

Originally Posted by James P

Not sure which tank you refer . . . .

See large red colour oval surrounding the protruding barrel jacket and muzzle of the coaxial mounted Browning.

[James P]

What makes you think it is missing ? Eds 1984 pic or did it get pinched since Steves and the first picture showing the tank ?..............BTW I have a pretty good handle on what gun goes where. Q: is the co-axe supposed to stick out that far on this monument tank ?

[Michael R.]

Originally Posted by James P

What makes you think it is missing ? Eds 1984 pic or did it get pinched since Steves and the first picture showing the tank ?..............BTW I have a pretty good handle on what gun goes where. Q: is the co-axe supposed to stick out that far on this monument tank ?

Hi James, I am not suggesting it is missing... apply your pretty good handle on what gun goes where and yes, as you deduced, the coaxial mounting 1919A4 .30 cal barrel assembly is not as fully exposed, for this particular turret model.

Unlike the co-driver bow gun.

Part of my poking fun at the need to “re-install” the item.
Could well be a most current inspection may reveal the part has been removed.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Michael R.

Hi James, I am not suggesting it is missing... apply your pretty good handle on what gun goes where and yes, as you deduced, the coaxial mounting 1919A4 .30 cal barrel assembly is not as fully exposed, for this particular turret model.

Unlike the co-driver bow gun.

Part of my poking fun at the need to “re-install” the item.
Could well be a most current inspection may reveal the part has been removed.

Slightly off topic, but relevant to the discussion of Shermans. I see in the top of the left side image "turret cradle lock". Is this a fixture to immobilize the main gun to prevent damage to the gunner's aiming mechanism, the same way other Shermans have a triangular travel lock for the barrel?

[David Herbert]

Michael,
Yes I had spotted that the .30 was protruding too far but opted to add a bit of satire to the subject - oh well, it was worth a try !

Terry,
The interior 'Turret Cradle Lock' does hold the gun at a fixed elevation to relieve the load on the elevation mechanism. There is also a turret traverse lock that engages with the traverse rack on the turret ring to relieve the load on the turret traverse brake on the traverse gearbox. Both these features are operated from inside the turret and so can be easily released if needed.
These features date from the very beginning of Sherman production but it was found quite early on that the external V shaped gun crutch was a much better way to immobilize the gun and turret together during shipping and long advances. There was a way to release the external crutch from inside the tank but it was a bit crude so the original internal locks were retained and gradually made more substantial as Shermans were developed and were intended to be used when there was a possibility of action but a long advance needed to be made.

David

[Michael R.]

David:

you got me. I should have known better.


The spring loaded “turret cradle lock” showing above and centred on the main gun. The turret traverse lock handle is usually painted red: part time users with age onset memory loss beware. The hydraulic powered turret traverse is not forgiving.

[Ed Storey]

Perhaps the M1919A4 MGs were not fitted that often.

[David Herbert]

I would doubt that Shermans would go into action without their .30s as they were very necessary for suppressing attacks from infantry.

I have not seen the shelf before that is fitted in front of the driver's hatch in the photo above. It is certainly not factory. I am thinking that it is too late to be for anti gas paint so possibly the driver's way to avoid water being pushed up the glassis plate and into his hatch when ploughing through deep water.

I suspect that that photo was taken on a training exercise in Canada well post war so no need for MGs.

David

[James P]

Originally Posted by David Herbert

I would doubt that Shermans would go into action without their .30s as they were very necessary for suppressing attacks from infantry.

I have not seen the shelf before that is fitted in front of the driver's hatch in the photo above. It is certainly not factory. I am thinking that it is too late to be for anti gas paint so possibly the driver's way to avoid water being pushed up the glassis plate and into his hatch when ploughing through deep water.

I suspect that that photo was taken on a training exercise in Canada well post war so no need for MGs.

David

Weapons on the turret top, C1 SMG and a 1919 that looks fitted with a cone shaped BFA atop a tripod say ex somewhere in Canada.