Sherman V CT150503 at Trois-Rivières, Québec

[maple_leaf_eh]

Is there a smart person who can find the document mentioned earlier about Trophy Tanks? My Internet Wayback Machine search comes up blank.

[Colin Alford]

Terry,

I may not qualify as a smart person, but here are some links that may be of interest:

Start of CMHQ file 1/War Trophy/1:
https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...96/589?r=0&s=1

One of the many documents that specifically deals with CT150503:
https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...96/687?r=0&s=1

End of CMHQ file 1/War Trophy/1: https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...96/755?r=0&s=3

Happy reading!

[maple_leaf_eh]

I went to the end of the last URL, and pecked backwards. Messages on file make specific mention of "Marion", which I recognize as a Kangaroo name used on the Canadian War Museum's rebuild, was not to return to Canada.

So far I've seen well known names including "Forceful", "Bomb", and "Holy Roller". Other tanks are mentioned by census number, including a Stuart to the Lincoln and Welland, and a few which apparently survived from England to Holland. Whether these were DDay tanks like Bomb is to be researched. I just have to determine when those units arrived in Normandy.

[Colin Alford]

Gents,

Despite having read through 1/War Trophy/1 numerous times, I have only just noticed a significant discrepancy regarding "Cathy".

The documents state that CT150503 was a 22 CAR (Canadian Grenadier Guards) tank, not a 12 CAR (Three Rivers Regiment) tank.

Can anyone find close-up images of the plaque in front of "Cathy" to read the full inscription?

I also found this: https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remem...s/details/7102

Has the actual regiment that operated this tank been forgotten through the passage of time?

I will also note that the service history of "FORCEFUL" was forgotten for a number of years (late 1940s to 1980s) when it was in Borden prior to heading back to GGFG (displayed at Cartier Square Drill Hall, then CWM).

It seems that some additional research is required.

[Colin Alford]

The plot thickens,

The Montreal Gazette, 16 January 1946, page 7 of the scan (page 8 of the paper), slightly right of centre, “Tale of a Tank”:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?n...rontpage&hl=en

The article seems to clearly identify CT 150503 as “Ginny” belonging to 22 CAR.

CT 150503 - Montreal Gazette 16 Jan 1946.jpg

[Colin Alford]

Apparently The ‘52 Natural’ was the Regimental Newspaper of the Canadian Grenadier Guards.

It seems that the 16 Jan 1946 Montreal Gazette article was condensed from an 11 Jul 1945 ‘52 Natural’ article: https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...30/959?r=0&s=2

See attached.

D4CD05D5-388A-4575-ACEA-B747D1C17D6A.jpeg

[Bob Phillips]

Colin, absolutely a wealth of information. One only appreciates the massive job the selecting and returning war trophies turns into, when you read through the pages and pages of war materials to be considered. Do you know if there is a published list of the collection at the Cdn War Museum? It would be interesting to see how much material made it and how much was actually saved.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

Apparently The ‘52 Natural’ was the Regimental Newspaper of the Canadian Grenadier Guards.

They note: "recent issue of the Maple Leaf have featured pictures of various machines of war that have made the long trip through from D Day to VE Day. Through no fault of ours were are unable to qualify for this D to VE Day."

"Ginny", or "Old Ginny", landed in France on 26 July 1944 with the 22nd Armoured Regiment (The Canadian Grenadier Guards) as part of the 4th Armoured Brigade, 4th Canadian Armoured Division, and continued to fight in North West Europe until the end of the war.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

Despite having read through 1/War Trophy/1 numerous times, I have only just noticed a significant discrepancy regarding "Cathy".

The documents state that CT150503 was a 22 CAR (Canadian Grenadier Guards) tank, not a 12 CAR (Three Rivers Regiment) tank.

Can anyone find close-up images of the plaque in front of "Cathy" to read the full inscription?

Apologies for picking up on you great detective work so late, Colin.

Tony Viste digged up a file listing T 150503 being in service with 3 Squadron of the 22 Cdn Armd Regt, ref. http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=12768

The files you refer to also show that the Sherman V CT150503 served with the 22 CAR and was to be sent back as a trophy. They wanted to bring home two tanks: CT232254 a 17-pdr Sherman, and CT150503 a 75-mm Sherman. Brigadier Macklin deemed it was "extravagant to allow any one regiment to take home two tanks". I do not know who and why choose to bring home CT150503 and leave behind CT232254.

I wonder who changed CT 150503's name from Ginny to Cathy? Maybe this was done when it was retrofitted with a 17-pdr gun? Did anyone want it to look like CT 232254? Was CT-232254 named Cathy originally?

Additional research is required indeed.

image687.jpg image688.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

From: https://www.silverhawkauthor.com/pos...anada-6-quebec

M4A4 Sherman Firefly VC 17-pounder Monument 12e RBC. This M4A4 is reported to have served with the Three Rivers Regiment in Sicily, Italy, and in the Netherlands during the Second World War. It was returned to Canada as a "War Trophy," and is on display as a monument in Trois Riviers, Quebec. Its original 75-mm gun has been replaced with a 17-pounder anti-tank gun. The tank's original Serial Number is 5235, indicating it was accepted in Sep 1942. The bullet splash plates on this tank are welded onto the air intake grill.
CFR No. WD CT150503, “Cathy”.
60f21cca2bbacb3ba0d2d1fe_M4A2-Sherman-17-pounder-Firefly--Trois-Rivieres--Quebec--9-resixed.jpg 60f21cc94d163619368b0926_M4A2-Sherman-17-pounder-Firefly--Trois-Rivieres--Quebec--7-resized.jpg
(Author Photos, 4 Apr 2012)

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

Despite having read through 1/War Trophy/1 numerous times, I have only just noticed a significant discrepancy regarding "Cathy".

The documents state that CT150503 was a 22 CAR (Canadian Grenadier Guards) tank, not a 12 CAR (Three Rivers Regiment) tank.

Can anyone find close-up images of the plaque in front of "Cathy" to read the full inscription?

Colin, this is all I could find. This plaque commemorates the men of the 12CAR who gave their lives in WW2 - May They RIP
No reference is made on the plaque to the Sherman which is part of the memorial. Maybe that is where the confusion came from: CT150503 was an ex-22 CAR Sherman which somehow ended up as a memorial to the 12 CAR, which is why people now assume it is an ex-12 CAR Sherman?

Why did it not stay in the custody of the 22CAR and why was it fitted with a 17-pdr gun?

Again, additional research is required.


60f21cc91b12b768cb5e6403_M4A2-Sherman-17-pounder-Firefly--Trois-Rivieres--Quebec--3-plaque.jpg
Source: https://www.silverhawkauthor.com/pos...anada-6-quebec

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Some more searching on the internet yielded more info: The Canadian Virtual Military Museum explains:

"This Sherman on display at Trois-Rivières, Québec, Canada, is Sherman V (M4A4) CT150503, one of four "war trophy" Shermans shipped from Europe to Canada after WW2. Since this photo was taken, this tank has been further restored and relocated elsewhere on the same property.

According to the curator of the Three Rivers Regiment, "when the Sherman arrived in Canada for the regiment, it had no gun barrel . The regimental museum had a barrel fitted to the turret.

The name "CATHY" is in fact the name of an officer's wife. The Three Rivers Regiment never have a Sherman named "CATHY" in service."