Sherman V CT150503 at Trois-Rivières, Québec

[Colin Alford]

Apparently The ‘52 Natural’ was the Regimental Newspaper of the Canadian Grenadier Guards.

It seems that the 16 Jan 1946 Montreal Gazette article was condensed from an 11 Jul 1945 ‘52 Natural’ article: https://heritage.canadiana.ca/view/o...30/959?r=0&s=2

See attached.

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[Bob Phillips]

Colin, absolutely a wealth of information. One only appreciates the massive job the selecting and returning war trophies turns into, when you read through the pages and pages of war materials to be considered. Do you know if there is a published list of the collection at the Cdn War Museum? It would be interesting to see how much material made it and how much was actually saved.

[maple_leaf_eh]

The documents at LAC describe a battle for the regiments to identify, explain and justify their trophy vehicles, all the while demobilizing and sending guys home. The loss of corporate knowledge was significant. At the same time, the big Army was reluctant to approve very many pieces to come back to Canada. It was a rationalization that forced less important pieces to be abandoned.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

Apparently The ‘52 Natural’ was the Regimental Newspaper of the Canadian Grenadier Guards.

They note: "recent issue of the Maple Leaf have featured pictures of various machines of war that have made the long trip through from D Day to VE Day. Through no fault of ours were are unable to qualify for this D to VE Day."

"Ginny", or "Old Ginny", landed in France on 26 July 1944 with the 22nd Armoured Regiment (The Canadian Grenadier Guards) as part of the 4th Armoured Brigade, 4th Canadian Armoured Division, and continued to fight in North West Europe until the end of the war.

[Colin Alford]

Hanno,

I have compiled more documents, and will post them soon.

Colin

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

I have compiled more documents, and will post them soon.

Thanks Colin, am looking forward to it.

Meanwhile, Joe DeMarco sent me a small photo of another plaque:

There is (or was) a reference to Cathy on the plaque by the tank, "The Three Rivers Regiment used this Sherman Battle Tank during the Second World War in Sicily, Italy and Netherlands.
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The information on that plaque is just plain wrong, and should be corrected. It may be the same sort of case as what happened to Sherman V "Argyll Roger" at Oosterbeek. That has a made-up identity as well, based on ignorance and the will to please some stakeholders, rather than at least trying to get the facts about its history right.

[Ed Storey]

I wonder if the CGG know or even care that their Sherman "Ginny" has been appropriated by the TTR and given a complete BS back story along with a fake 17-pdr gun? Nothing surprises me when it comes to historical misinterpretation of vehicle artefacts in Canada, but this has to be the worst case I have ever seen.

[Ed Storey]

In a quirky twist of fate, a number of years ago the Canadian Grenadier Guards painted up a post-WWII M4A2E8 Sherman in wartime markings and placed it on a nice interlocking stone pad on the road leading into the Connaught Ranges Primary Training Centre which is located on the western outskirts of Ottawa. The Sherman is gone, having been replaced with a M109A4, although the plaque still remains. Only in Canada....

I am not a fan of outdoor display of military vehicles, but this would probably have been a better spot for a refurbished "Ginny", aka now "Cathy" then posing as a Three Rivers Regiment tank in Trois-Rivières.

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[Hanno Spoelstra]

Agree Ed, that's why the research done on this (and other) forum is so important. By doing "crowd research" where everyone chips in with the snippets & chunks of info they have individually, the end result paints a complete picture.

Re. the M4A2E8 which was at Quebec, Colin posted an interesting link:

Originally Posted by Colin Alford

I also found this: https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remem...s/details/7102

Has the actual regiment that operated this tank been forgotten through the passage of time?

The note on that page is interesting:

"Note: This tank is no longer present at the Connaught Range Site. It was reclaimed by the Canadian War Museum and given to an indiviudal in Calgary, AB."

So the CWM gave a Sherman tank to an individual?!? Isn't that a sign of nepotism? At least they are transparent about it...

[Colin Alford]

Ed/Hanno,

My intent is to compile this information to send to the affected Regiments/Regimental Associations so that they are aware of the historical documents. I suspect that between Jan 1946 (arrival of tank in Canada), and Nov 1955 (dedication of TRR Tankers Memorial) that the corporate memory of who the tank served with was lost. It also appears that the claims that the tank actually served with 12 CAR are relatively modern (most likely based on Lore).

The following posts detail all of the documents that I have found. I will attempt to clean it up and add some images later.

Colin

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

"Ginny", or "Old Ginny", landed in France on 26 July 1944 with the 22nd Armoured Regiment (The Canadian Grenadier Guards) as part of the 4th Armoured Brigade, 4th Canadian Armoured Division, and continued to fight in North West Europe until the end of the war.

Luc Normand bought a Sherman model named “Ginny” in Montreal: “Years ago I acquired a miniature tank that came from the family of a veteran, bearing the same name “Ginny”. I never realized it was named after an actual WW2 Sherman tank.”

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