1st Hussars and Holy Roller & Perry Kitson

[Jordan Baker]

Originally Posted by James P

I wonder if the Otter on the road was a bring back vehicle also in the pic ?

Highly doubt it. There was approximately 100 Otters left in Canada for training purposes. The ones in Europe at the end of hostilities were declared surplus

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Can somebody explain the markings?

Dual bordered squares on either side of the turret and a single one centred on the back of the turret with the number ‘3’ in it?

David

Not me, and I thought I knew a thing or two about such markings. A few items make sense but have to wonder if some local troopers painted 'something' on for the city presentation, accuracy notwithstanding.

[James P]

Originally Posted by Jordan Baker

Highly doubt it. There was approximately 100 Otters left in Canada for training purposes. The ones in Europe at the end of hostilities were declared surplus

I doubt it also but anything is possible. Which rises the larger question, leaving aside the Mowat shipment of captured equipment, what all did the Government of Canada bring back to Canada ?? Seems "Old Reliable" was a private purchase/shipment to Canada by SAR members was Bomb and Holy Roller returned at public expense or the same by private return ? Did Bomb and Holy Roller come to Canada together ? was there other pieces of equipment sent to Canada ?
Still sad to see short sighted folk treating this piece of Canadian wartime history like a monument to be parked outside instead of it receiving a full and complete restoration (and not some cosmetic do over) followed by indoor display.

https://sites.google.com/site/salhre...dron/halftrack

[David Dunlop]

Hi Bruce.

That markings puzzle raises some interesting points.

Most, if not all, Canadian Regiments that served overseas during WW2, maintained a presence in Canada. Their Canadian based vehicles used a number of markings distinct from what were used by the same Regiment overseas. Given those differences, my thought is the Canadian and overseas parts of any given Regiment would only ever have received vehicle markings data that was relevant to their specific location, and were very likely completely blind to what was happening ‘on the other side’.

Add to that, when members of a Regiment returned home after the war, for most, the demob process took place overseas. When they got back to Canada they went home in the vast majority of cases. So Holy Roller comes back to Canada with perhaps a lot of the overseas markings painted over and there are very few, if any members of the Regiment in Canada that would actually know what markings to should actually have, so they improvised.

As you noted, however, it is nice to see that at least for a while in 1946 back in Canada, Holy Roller was still a complete and working runner. Probably after all the official press coverage, she went back to the armoury and had her power plant pulled and all the other useful kit removed and it has been on a slippery slope ever since.

At least Holy Roller has faired better than the RCAF’s most decorated Lancaster that survived an incredible number of bombing missions and ended up in Vulcan Alberta and in spite of efforts at the time to save it, ended up scrapped.

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by James P

I doubt it also but anything is possible. Which rises the larger question, leaving aside the Mowat shipment of captured equipment, what all did the Government of Canada bring back to Canada ?? Seems "Old Reliable" was a private purchase/shipment to Canada by SAR members was Bomb and Holy Roller returned at public expense or the same by private return ? Did Bomb and Holy Roller come to Canada together ? was there other pieces of equipment sent to Canada ?

Read more about the war trophies brought back to Canada here:

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/sh...5027#post15027

[James P]

And another piece of Canadian wartime history that deserves better treatment then what it is subjected to currently.

https://www.mapleleafup.nl/cmpvehicl..._vi_recce.html

[Perry Kitson]

I have sat back and kept my mouth shut about this project, but it is now at a fork in the road where either the project managers and city can be convinced to do the right thing and restore this historic machine, or condemn it to the fate now chosen for it. I have not been given the opportunity to plead the case for restoration to the city or project managers. If you want to see a better outcome for this tank, please call/email the city of London and the project managers to voice your opinion.
https://www.holyrollermemorial.ca/

[Stewart Loy]

Originally Posted by Perry Kitson

If you want to see a better outcome for this tank, please call/email the city of London and the project managers to voice your opinion. https://www.holyrollermemorial.ca/

Perry,

I went to the website and voiced my support for a better fate for this significant piece of armour.

It deserves better than a new paint job and rusting in place.

Thanks for your efforts.


Stewart

[Ed Storey]

The tank certainly deserves a better place, but the question is, where should it go?

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Is there any more information to determine if the money being spent matches the effort being expended? Is it a $250,000 paint job?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

I agree that ideally, for long term preservation, it should be brought undercover. However, a tank sitting outside as part of a memorial has a function and a certain attraction. The same sort of debate is ongoing about the Sherman V at Westkapelle.

Talking from experience (though that is dated), a budget of CAD 250k and volunteer labour should enable a full restoration to running order. A cosmetic / static restoration costs far less as worn out bearings, road wheels, springs, tracks can be (re-)used and engine(s) and other interior components can be left out.

[David Dunlop]

Hanno.

You raise an interesting point regarding vehicles as War Memorials. There are two Shermans in Winnipeg I am aware of serving this purpose and one in a small town northwest of Winnipeg. Of the two here in town, one is outside a Federal Government Armoury and the other a Canadian Legion.

The ‘Federal’ one, last I was near it many years ago, had been ‘sanitized’ of any possible exterior parts and fittings that could possibly cause injury to anyone climbing over it. Federal Bean Counters do not like Law Suits. By contrast, the Legion Sherman retains most, if not all of its original fittings.

What would really be interesting, however, would be putting both under video coverage for one full year to see how many people actually interact with both of them. My thought would be very, very few would even acknowledge their existence and even fewer would take the time to actually walk up to it to read any informative plaque, touch it, or take a picture. People simply do not care anymore for these things sitting quietly decaying.

Now take those same vehicles away somewhere indoors and fully restore them to operating condition and on special occasions, fire it up and drive it about so people can actually see what they are capable of in action, what they sound like and how they sound and smell, and you will have people of all ages lined up for hours to learn more about it.

You will get that kind of response from virtually ANY run of the mill Sherman, but if you were dealing with actual wartime survivors like Holy Roller, or Bomb, with the traceable stories of crew members that actually worked, lived, laughed and were scared silly in combat in those two tanks, you have a direct link in time and history that is invaluable beyond measure. Sadly however, the bureaucrats that own these vehicles today are too busy saying, ‘Look what we’ve got!’ They simply do not See what they have on hand.

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David Dunlop

Sadly however, the bureaucrats that own these vehicles today are too busy saying, ‘Look what we’ve got!’ They simply do not See what they have on hand.

David, I agree with you. Principally, "they" see things differently.

But! As these are public assets, the public also has a say in it and seize the opportunity to make the most of it. Like Perry said, make your voice heard and convince them to do the right thing and restore this historic machine. It can work if one has the powers to convince (again, speaking from experience).

Here's hoping Perry's plan comes to fruitition. If anyone more local starts a petition, I will surely sign it.

[GaryC]

Originally Posted by Perry Kitson

I have sat back and kept my mouth shut about this project, but it is now at a fork in the road where either the project managers and city can be convinced to do the right thing and restore this historic machine, or condemn it to the fate now chosen for it. I have not been given the opportunity to plead the case for restoration to the city or project managers. If you want to see a better outcome for this tank, please call/email the city of London and the project managers to voice your opinion.
https://www.holyrollermemorial.ca/

I'm going to echo what Perry has stated. Action not words.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

Is there any more information to determine if the money being spent matches the effort being expended? Is it a $250,000 paint job?

Compared with the €1,000,000 budget for the restoration of the Tiger tank at Vimoutiers, the Canadian quote sounds like a steal…

“Vimoutiers. Un million d'euros pour restaurer le char Tigre”
https://actu.fr/normandie/vimoutiers..._45432774.html

[maple_leaf_eh]

Last week I was buying for my neighbourhood 'skeptic tank' meeting of likeminded gents, and look what I found!

[GaryC]

I've read over this thread and I agree with many that it is a disgrace on how HOLY ROLLER has been left. The markings on HOLY ROLLER were painted in Europe prior to it being shipped back to Canada. Canadian units were allowed by DND and or the Canadian government to send one item home as a "war trophy".

The question does stick out of why two squadron tac symbols on the turret. It does by one photo appear that is what was not the turret when it came out of the depot in Enschede. But again the question is why? Does anyone have an educated guess or direction of perhaps something 2 CAB allowed?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

From https://www.facebook.com/vintagelond...063660/?type=3

“ "Holy Roller", a Sherman tank used by the First Hussars Regiment during WWII, was presented to the City of London in 1950 and located at Queen's Park. This was a fitting location as many of the veterans who manned the tank had trained at the Queen's Park (Western Fair) location. In May 1956 the Holy Roller was relocated to the north end of Victoria Park, and it is currently (2022) undergoing preservation work.
In this photograph we see two youngsters, Teddy(3yrs) and Henry(4yrs) Telkowski, who lived on nearby Quebec Street, playing alongside the tank.

May 9, 1956

Western University Archives, London Free Press Negative Collection, courtesy of Mike Rice.”




“This is the Queen's Park location, so it dates from 1950 to 1956.”

[Hanno Spoelstra]

“Holy Roller set to return to Victoria Park”
https://london.ctvnews.ca/holy-rolle...park-1.5921850

[Ed Storey]

This project can only be summed up as an immense waste of time and money. To dedicate the resources to restoring and mitigating the decades of deterioration from outdoor display only to return the vehicle back to the park shows a complete lack of vision or appreciation of the historical significance for this vehicle. Someone needs to tell the people running this project that we no longer live in the 1950s and that outdoor display is the death knell for vehicles and equipment.

I wonder what happened to the tracks and roadwheels that got replaced, nothing like stripping away the original wartime pieces for new replacements....

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I wonder what happened to the tracks and roadwheels that got replaced, nothing like stripping away the original wartime pieces for new replacements....

The originals are probably on a skid headed for the scrapper. And the new replacements are, unfortunately, no longer available for a running restoration.

I agree Ed, a missed opportunity and big disappointment.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Agree with both of you. Personally I would have preferred to see this tank to be put inside or at least under cover. It seems there wasn't a lack of funds - seeing that new tracks and road wheels could be acquired from abroad. If it isn't meant to be runner, they could have re-used the old track and spent the funds on a roof over it's head?

“We have the new track on it which came from France,” Haley added. “We have new road wheels which came from Belgium. So there's been all sorts of parts that have come from all over the world to go on this tank”.

It seems the people running the show have chosen not to reconsider its location and stick it on its outside pad in the park again. A bit like the people in Westkapelle.


Added photo of Holy Roller with new track (nmp):

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

stick it on its outside pad in the park again. A bit like the people in Westkapelle.

I get the impression from this thread that a major difference is that the people of London, ON, have no particular love for their tank, while the people of Westkapelle, ZLD, see theirs as their tank.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

I get the impression from this thread that a major difference is that the people of London, ON, have no particular love for their tank, while the people of Westkapelle, ZLD, see theirs as their tank.

Yeah, the love goes as far as letting the vehicle deteriorate outside but there is indifference to embracing any other preservation strategy.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

I get the impression from this thread that a major difference is that the people of London, ON, have no particular love for their tank, while the people of Westkapelle, ZLD, see theirs as their tank.

Bang on. The people who frequent the park (and, incidentally, the rest of London's once beautiful and safe downtown) are increasingly hostile drug zombies and 'progressives' who would regard the tank as symbol of privilege and oppression. Regardless of what you think of the restoration and outcome, Holly Roller will have few admirers once retuned to its concrete slab.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

It runs! (With smoke and mirrors…)

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/...ia-park-return

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

It runs! (With smoke and mirrors…)

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/...ia-park-return

Attachment 128872

The feels-good article throws the word 'restoration' around quite a bit and leaves the reader thinking it's a running tank (that ought to get the downtown London vandals planning a nighttime visit...).

Still, we're in the middle of a climate change crisis so I'm so glad they:

installed an electric motor, allowing the Holy Roller to move by its own power during Monday’s restoration reveal.

[James P]

I am totally underwhelmed.

[Ed Storey]

I am relieved to learn that the 2 Pence coin found inside the tank is now on indoor display.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

I am relieved to learn that the 2 Pence coin found inside the tank is now on indoor display.

Coat it in POR15 and throw it back. Once the hatches are welded shut it will easily last another 50 years. Until the next paint job. Or scrapping.