Thompson SMG

[r.morrison]

A question that's been in the back of my head for awhile. During WW11, the Thompson SMG was used by pretty well all nations. The magazines that I've seen used were the 20rd, 30rd and 50rd drum. Did the Commonwealth nations use the 30 round stick magazines or was that strickly an American piece of gear.
I'll sleep better knowing the answer......
Robert

[Ed Storey]

Good question and the trick is to find a wartime photograph of a Canadian using a 30-round Thompson magazine.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

I tried that yesterday, but a not-that-thorough search online and through a few books only found photos of Thompsons with 20- and 50-round magazines in the hands of British troops. Which is not proof they didn’t use 30-round ones, of course.

[David Dunlop]

Would the wartime Small Arms Pamphlet for the Thompson, for either England or Canada, cover available magazines, at least at the official level?

David

[r.morrison]

From what I found, like Jakko, it was the 20rd and 50rd units used. I have yet to see a photo/movie/documentary with the Commonwealth nations using the 30rd. The Devil's Brigade perhaps, as the were kitted out with American Gear.
Robert

[Neil Ashley]

The British originally specified the 20 round magazines and they were the only ones that would fit into early 37 pattern Bren Pouches until they changed the design. Internal stowage on vehicles was also built round the 20 round Mags but after the US discontinued their production early in the war the British Army would have had no choice.

[r.morrison]

Hi Neil: A very interesting piece of history there. I would have never even ventured that way as to the answer to the question. I have samples of all the items mentioned and will take some photos and measurements just to satisfy my own curiosity. I will post the photos.
Cheers to all for your input.....
Robert

[Ed Storey]

Attached is a copy of a Basic Pouch contents photograph that was taken many years ago for my Service Publications book 37 Pattern Web.

[derk derin]

David had a good point. Look at an official Pam for the Thompson. I just so happen to have one on my shelf! Usually all my manuals are displayed with my field equipment but sadly I do not have a Thompson to display with my manual. Maybe one day?
In the manual it lists a 20 round and 50 round magazine available. There is no mention of a 30 round magazine!

[r.morrison]

Hi Ed: Thanks for posting the photo. Saves me a bit of work. So, as per your photo, the Commonwealth Nations DID utilize the 30 round magazine. It looks like it would just fit into the pouch.
I appreciate everyone's input on the matter.
Robert

[Neil Ashley]

The bible on this is the book 'Great Britain - The Tommy Gun Story' by Tom Davis Junior. Neither Sten Mags or 30 round Thompson Mags would fit into British Mk 1 Bren Mags. With the 39 pattern leather equipment they modified the pouches by taking off the popper tab and moving it up.

The British Army had just adopted a metal box to hold 20 round mags when the americans decided to discontinue production so they were not very happy.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by r.morrison

Hi Ed: Thanks for posting the photo. Saves me a bit of work. So, as per your photo, the Commonwealth Nations DID utilize the 30 round magazine. It looks like it would just fit into the pouch.
I appreciate everyone's input on the matter.
Robert

No, I don't have any photographic evidence that Commonwealth Nations ever used the 30 round Thompson magazine although I did not know that some 20 years ago when the photograph was taken for the book.

[Ed Storey]

Originally Posted by derk derin

David had a good point. Look at an official Pam for the Thompson. I just so happen to have one on my shelf! Usually all my manuals are displayed with my field equipment but sadly I do not have a Thompson to display with my manual. Maybe one day?
In the manual it lists a 20 round and 50 round magazine available. There is no mention of a 30 round magazine!

That is a nice early edition of the Thompson SAT.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by derk derin

There is no mention of a 30 round magazine!

That is not too surprising. Your manual is dated 1940, and per Wikipedia:

The 30-round box was approved as the new standard in December 1941 to replace the "XX" and "L" magazines.

[Ed Storey]

While the Small Arms Training wartime series of manuals are good primary reference sources on how to hold, load, aim, fire and clean the small arms being employed by British forces, they really do not delve too deeply into the minutia of the weapons. I have a pretty good collection of SATs and have checked through the later editions for the Thompson and Machine Carbine manuals and did not see any reference to 30-round magazines.

Another source that would record a change in Thompson magazines would be the RCEME publications or even the Quartermaster entries in the wartime Divisional and Corps files.

I am still looking to see if I can locate a wartime photograph of a Canadian using a 30-round Thompson magazine.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

These could be:



These are troops of the 1st Special Service Force, a joint US-Canadian unit. But proving that the men holding Thompsons with 30-round magazines are Canadians may be difficult.

[Ed Storey]

The 1SSF were given, but finding a Canadian using a 30-round Thompson magazine in I Canadian Corps is the challenge.

[r.morrison]

Hi Jakko/Ed: Looking closely at the photos, you can see 30 round magazines but this is MY observance and I stand to be corrected: The large group photo shows about 4 soldiers carrying Thompsons. 2 soldiers in the upper centre left definitely have 2 units with 30 round mags. Centre right beside the Browing 1919 is definitley a 30 round mag.
In the other photo, one soldier rests his arm on an ammo belt/pouches which look to be 30 round mags.
Thats may 2 cents on these photos. Thanks for the posting.
Robert

[Ed Storey]

Yes you are correct as there are indeed 3-round Thompson magazines in the two photographs and there is no disputing that 1SSF, a composite American special forces unit containing Canadians used 30-round magazines. But to answer your initial question did Commonwealth nations use the 30-round magazine then in the case of Canada, you need to find evidence, either a photograph or wartime document from Canadian sources to prove that particular magazine was used. If I were searching out the answer, then I would focus the hunt on I Canadian Corps as they fought in Italy where the Thompson was used.

[r.morrison]

Thanks Ed: I'll get in touch with a couple of regiments that I have close contact with and see if I can dig up some info. If I find any photos, I'll be sure to post them.
Many thanks to all again for your contributions....
Robert

[derk derin]

Update on the Thompson SAT information. David mentioned to me he has a 1944 manual that covers the Thompson and Sten. I too have that manual displayed in my collection and interesting enough it only mentions the 20 round magazine. It doesn’t mention the 30 round magazine and no longer mentioned the 50 round drum magazine.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

I think this is a 30-round magazine:



These are Norwegian Commandos, probably on Walcheren in late 1944, who for some reason are guarding a group of German prisoners with shovels, so I suppose this is after the fighting.

However, I couldn’t find any other photos of Commandos with 30-round magazines (except one of this same man, taken from a different direction), when I would kind of expect Commandos to want larger magazines if those were to be had. For all we know, of course, if this fellow does have a 30-round one, maybe he got it from an American somehow …

[r.morrison]

If I had that many German prisoners armed with shovels, I'd want a 30 round mag or maybe 3!
Robert

[gordon]

Everybody started WW2 with 20 and 50 round magazines, the 100 round ones having been found impractical. Both types would fit the 1921 and 1928 gun variants.

When the M1A1 was introduced, it wouldn't take the 50 round 'L' drum mag, so users were limited to the 20 round sticks, and there was a lot of complaining about the lack of fire volume, so the US introduced the 30 round stick which became very popular. I haven't seen a wartime photo of two 20 round sticks taped back to back but apparently it was quite common.

[Lang]

AWM Photo of Australians in Tobruk, New Guinea and home training.