Books photos about executed POWS June 1944

FRANK....Yes. That helps Thanks

What is:

S.O.S.
T.O.S.
22 CAEBTC (North Bay)
A15CITC (Shilo)
3COIRU (or? CDOIRU)
2CIRU
3CIRU
2GREEKBN

then FIELD from April 28, 1943 til death

3 Jul 44 / SOS x6 RWR
7 Jun 45 / SOSx-6 list deceased (confirmed killed 8 Jun 44)

Thanks folks...Mark kindly let me know what the abbreviations mean.

REJECTION: My Uncle tried enlisting prior to when they let him in in Dec 41. In AUG 41 the ARMY REJECTED him for "SUGAR"...I thought that "sugar" just would have meant that his sugar levels were out of whack temporarily but fine the 2nd time he enlisted in Dec 41 so they accepted him that 2nd time.

A friend of mine said that they used to call diabetes "sugar" (I remember the term sugar-diabetes but never the single term "sugar")
We gave 5 diabetics in our family... including Granny (Ed's mom)

My "friend" told me that my Uncle was probably diabetic and that by the 2nd time he tried to enlist in Dec 41 that standards hand been relaxed for enlistment because the manpower was needed overseas...

Would they really have allowed a diabetic to enlist??? I would think fluctuating blood-sugar levels, or a diabetic being separated in war without his insulin would put operations and everyone at risk, therefore would not be allowed. Am I wrong?

[Frank Misztal]

SOS = Struck Off Strength (removed from a unit nominal roll)

TOS = Taken On Strength (joined or enlisted)

North Bay and Shilo look like training centres. I'll try to dig up the info.

Remainder look like units. 2GREEKBN could be 2nd Greek Battalion. I'll check on these also.

FIELD = Battlefield (ie. He was deployed out to the battlefield.)

I'm not sure about the "x6" in your last 2 lines. Will look into it.

Frank ...

Originally posted by Frank Misztal
SOS = Struck Off Strength (removed from a unit nominal roll)

TOS = Taken On Strength (joined or enlisted)

North Bay and Shilo look like training centres. I'll try to dig up the info.

Remainder look like units. 2GREEKBN could be 2nd Greek Battalion. I'll check on these also.

FIELD = Battlefield (ie. He was deployed out to the battlefield.)

I'm not sure about the "x6" in your last 2 lines. Will look into it.

Frank ...

Hi Frank...Thanks...

Mark already sent me an email with some of these answers when this forum was acting up.

SHILO... I know is an Army base/training place in Manitoba. I remember it from when I was a little kid The North Bay, Ontario is another I learned. My Uncle was in both places at different times.

Thanks again...Karmen

Hi Carman, It would not necessary mean that your uncle was a diabetic. I worked at a recruiting depot for the Korean war and often cautioned perspective recruits not to have a coke if they were going for a medical that day. Coke not only raises your sugar level temporaryly but is a great source of kidney stones, believe me I have been there.

GREEK Battalion????? GREEK???? Eh?: What mean this?

Originally posted by Art Johnson
Hi Carman, It would not necessary mean that your uncle was a diabetic. I worked at a recruiting depot for the Korean war and often cautioned perspective recruits not to have a coke if they were going for a medical that day. Coke not only raises your sugar level temporaryly but is a great source of kidney stones, believe me I have been there.

Thanks ART... ouch Kidney Stones. I feel for you!!! Did they "laser" them?

Regards bloodsugar... maybe something he ate or drank effected his levels that first time round. I've had trouble the opposite way from diabetis ...hypoglycemia. The Army was probably concerned with the sugar reading because Granny was a juvenile-diabetes sufferer... or maybe just rejected him because his mom was a diabetic?

I still can't believe the army/whoever would accept a diabetic for active service/war, ever, for obvious reasons.

Carman, in the time frame that you are talking of I don't think the Army would have accepted a diabetic knowingly. A little story if I may. Two of my brother in laws went to join the Army in 1942. One was like me 5'-7" and 150 lbs. The other was 6'-1" and 190 lbs. The smaller man was accepted and trained as a gunner, he ended up in the Argyles as a section leader and was wounded. The bigger man was rejected and returned to civie street. Two years later he was drafted and sent overseas to England where he spent most of his time in a hospital. This man was so bad he could not get insurance before or after his time in the Army. My father who joined arround the same time was 54 and lied about his age and ended up going to India. Go figure.

Originally posted by Art Johnson
Carman, in the time frame that you are talking of I don't think the Army would have accepted a diabetic knowingly. A little story if I may. Two of my brother in laws went to join the Army in 1942. One was like me 5'-7" and 150 lbs. The other was 6'-1" and 190 lbs. The smaller man was accepted and trained as a gunner, he ended up in the Argyles as a section leader and was wounded. The bigger man was rejected and returned to civie street. Two years later he was drafted and sent overseas to England where he spent most of his time in a hospital. This man was so bad he could not get insurance before or after his time in the Army. My father who joined arround the same time was 54 and lied about his age and ended up going to India. Go figure.

ART...I like your story! Go figure...is right. I guess rules are meant to be shot AT, not for???? Oiy...

By the way... at what age did they consider a man too old to enlist??? I notice in the group photo of the RWR's that the men were quite a varied age range...or looked it

By the way....my Rifleman Edward Smith was 5' 6 and a half inches with a 36" chest...someone really screwed up on listing his weight tho I think...they put 122lbs!!!!!! Thats pretty skinny...and illogical? Hard for me to believe at any rate. His 19 year old face was not "gaunt" as it would have been if he were that skinny. I don't remember clearly his face... but I remember it was rounded and fleshed out, tho not fat...definately not skin and bones. Hmmm... memory...now where the heck did I put it again? Huh?

Originally posted by DaveCox
Hi Carmen,
Keep away from the fires - I thought of you when I saw the pics of burning BC on my tv!!!!

Hmmmm... helicopters and planes have been going all day here... now I know why. A fire is happening 15/20 minutes out of town. Can't be too bad so far tho ... yah shouldn't have said anything Dave...yah jinxed us

Hi All

A form with the Header:

"Medals and Memorials -- Deceased Personnel"

1) MEDALS:
...Person
...Entitled to: Joseph Smith (Ed's dad)
......MEMORIAL B. R. (I think it's an "R")
......(reg. no 1043)

(Question: does the above mean Grandpa was presented with a Medal for Uncle Eddie?)

2) widow...(doen't apply here)

3) MEMORIAL CROSS:
presented to "Mother" Granny JUN 25, 1945

Karmen says: I'm interested in feedback about only #1 and whether Grandpa received a medal and what it was?
---------------------

Saw someone at the Legion, from Vet Affairs... she was a very young woman who knew zip about the records, how to interpret them etc. Will try the Legion Bingo and waylay one of the workers on the floor tonite

I get progressively more pissed off when I enquire about anything to do with War/WW2 etc from people in town (Except Legion people).. stopped in at the local book store/used/ to ask the owner....'Do yah know any Military History Buffs or Vets from WW2 I could approach"... "WHY"... they asked... eyebrows hit their hairlines and they look at me like I'm an absolute nutcase, which I may well be but hey... because its ain't politicallly/socially correct to openly research my relative.... I'm supposed to shut the ----up or receive that negative reaction??? AAAARGH!!!!!!!!! So disturbing! I really don't like this generation a whole lot sometimes. rat rant rannt... guess I should go balance my damned chakras and marry my girlfriend while smoking a legalized joint and shoulda burnt up my need to know my family history when I burnt my bra. aaaaarghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! :

Maybe when I've progressed a little more with my own info I'll start a little WW2 Canadian POWS History group... show Take No Prisoners and quote Howard Margolian and help people learn how to research their executed POW...

Frustrated in FIREY KOOTENAYS... (more fires THREE!!! burning within a few miles of Nelson... ok so far)

[DaveCox]

Hey Carman,

Just kick back with a cold beer, take a few deep breaths and chill out for a few minutes.
You will find the right person(s) to help you interpret the stuff you're going through, just ain't found the right one yet.
There are loads of people that'll try and put you down for what you're doing there, just ignore them and keep plugging away at it 'cos it is iimportant, not just to you but for anyone else that's doing the same.

Originally posted by DaveCox
Hey Carman,

Just kick back with a cold beer, take a few deep breaths and chill out for a few minutes.
You will find the right person(s) to help you interpret the stuff you're going through, just ain't found the right one yet.
There are loads of people that'll try and put you down for what you're doing there, just ignore them and keep plugging away at it 'cos it is iimportant, not just to you but for anyone else that's doing the same.

Why THANK YOU very much Dave... and I say this in a happy way -with a little help from my friend BAILEY...(or should I say BAILEYS) in my coffee?! I think being surrounded on all sides by the haze and the smell of smoke is agitating me a bit. Fires too close to home and brings reminders of what its like to wake up to a flaming house, or like the recent flamimg apt But the other thing is the usual discontent with living with extremes that don't leave a lot of room for exploring truths just because they happen to be true. I wish it were just as easy to openly research negative events as it is positive ones. Ah well... as they say, expectation is the birth of resentment (sorry about my rant)

I've every confidence I'll get all the help I need and don't worry about me giving up... I'm too caught up now to give up

What I like a lot about all this research is that I can help others who are just starting and "don't know where to start" when I see their messages online. It feels good... and much of my knowing where/how to search has come from you-all in the MLU

"What comes round...goes round"

[Frank Misztal]

Originally posted by Vets_Dottir
... By the way....my Rifleman Edward Smith was 5' 6 and a half inches with a 36" chest...someone really screwed up on listing his weight tho I think...they put 122lbs!!!!!! Thats pretty skinny...and illogical? Hard for me to believe at any rate. His 19 year old face was not "gaunt" as it would have been if he were that skinny. I don't remember clearly his face... but I remember it was rounded and fleshed out, tho not fat...definately not skin and bones. Hmmm... memory...now where the heck did I put it again? Huh?

Carman, when I joined the reserves in 1962, I was 5'6" and weighed-in at a whopping 118 lbs. You could count my ribs, but my face was not gaunt.

Ya see? The numbers do add up.

Frank ...

Originally posted by Frank Misztal
Carman, when I joined the reserves in 1962, I was 5'6" and weighed-in at a whopping 118 lbs. You could count my ribs, but my face was not gaunt.

Ya see? The numbers do add up.

Frank ...

Well... you were a slim one then...and I guess my Uncle was too. Hmmm. I never was very good at judging a persons weight. Will focus more on the "slim" men in the group photo of the RWR's. I still haven't been able to pick out my Uncle from that group photo from 1943 England. Funny, I thought I'd be able to pick him out immediately.

By the way... what did soldiers EAT when out in the field?

Something else I'd like to do is to be able to get a sense of the "typical" daily life of being a soldier that my Uncle and his comrades experienced. Including... what did they do/where did they go on their down times while in training and overseas etc. I was told that soldiers did "rotations"... sort of like "shifts" of duty then something else. Time off, whatever.

Does anyone know of any journals or memoirs online that would describe what and where my Uncles group of RWR's were and what they did, where they hung out on time off etc?

Also... I was told there are many reasons for AWL, some simply a matter of not being able to coordinate transportation to jive with time allowed, and so forth.

Am full of questions today. Can anyone answer any of them or point me to some good links to get any of this info? Thanks in advance!

(smoke smoke smoke...haze-smell it though not "eye-burning-coughing yet)

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub...sualty=2060243

That's the link to view the photo of the headstone. Click on the photo to enlarge and see the whole picture. There should be 2 more siblings mentioned...SIDNEY (brother) and LILY (sister) and Uncle Eddie's age should be 21 at death. NOT 25. That should be fixed soon too. Rose, the youngest born, was my Mom.

Its nice to see the photo...and I thank you GEOFF for the help with that Karmen

(huge mushroom cloud of smoke sitting on the mountain... about 5 miles from where I sit! I see, taste, smell smoke in the air. There is a big Rave "SHAMBALA" happening this weekend, the other way where another fire 15/20 minutes or so from here and from Salmo that is happening. 3000 tickets have already been presold... they expect 7000 turnout. Major festival event with people coming from Europe, states etc. Its a 3 day event. I wish it was called off... lots of folks worried about people who will attend...especially us parents of kids. My youngest is coming from Calgary for it...its an annual event.

Maybe you guys will join others from Ontario already here, to come fight fires here in BC... our SE corner is pretty hot hot.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Carman


Have you seen this...????
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...&category=4075

If you can't get the one on e-bay maybe you can find it else where..I don't recognize it and maybe your kin is not in it ...but maybe he is...

Originally posted by Alex Blair
Carman


Have you seen this...????
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...&category=4075

If you can't get the one on e-bay maybe you can find it else where..I don't recognize it and maybe your kin is not in it ...but maybe he is...

Thanks ALEX... I checked out the link. I think my Uncle is mentioned in that book, if its one that just came out recently. Unfortunately, I can't afford to spring for the book.

EDWARD SMITH LAKE... in Manitoba, close to Flin Flon and Kississing Lake was named after my Uncle and the guy at Geographical names said he was mentioned in the book. Also... you've reminded me that I'm still waiting to receive that Certificate regards my Uncle and the lake named for him... waiting more than 5 months now I think! Hmmm. Maybe I should call and enquire about it.

Thanks for remembering me... and at some point when I can I will search out a copy of that book

Wonder if anyone knows what these notes refer to?
(from the record of service forms)

All In the UK:

Proc. on Command to Special exercise 24Feb43 2CIRU

SOS to 2 Greek Bn 24Feb43 2CIRU

TOS from 2CIRU 25Feb43 2 Greek Bn

SOS to 2CIRU 18Mar43 2 Greek Bn

TOS from 2 Greek Bn 17Mar43 2CIRU (someone "circled the date "17")

(then back to RWR's 27Apr43)

Question:trying to find outwhatthe connection/reason for "Greek Bn" was all about. Maybe special extra skills training to take back to the RWR?

There is notation about 2 other "special" things, 1 a special "duty" and one a special "exercise" one of which was scratched out as "cancelled" The "Special Duty DEC 2, 1942" 11 days before leavingfor UK.

Anyhelp....gratefully appreciated! Thanks...Karmen

In Memory of the Birthday
of
EDWARD SMITH
Born: September 17, 1922
Beaconia, Manitoba

Son of Mary Ellen and Joseph Smith, brother of Elmer, Sidney, William, Lily, Victoria, Janice, Anna and Rose.

Rifleman Edward Smith H42084 of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles from Dec 16, 1941 to June 8, 1944.

[Regina]

TOS = Taken off Strength
SOS= Struck off Strength

It sound like his service record and the units he was transferred to and from after the TOS and SOS.
They used SOS on the same line recording KIA, meaning he was killed and taken off strength.

Originally posted by Regina
TOS = Taken off Strength
SOS= Struck off Strength

It sound like his service record and the units he was transferred to and from after the TOS and SOS.
They used SOS on the same line recording KIA, meaning he was killed and taken off strength.

Hi Regina!!! Thanks for the reply and info ... I really appreciate this (I hope all is well with you!) Take care...Carman

Hi everyone...and sorry, I have no new info to post just now, but will eventually, regards my uncles service and anything I figure you might find interesting from the notes and records. etc. I promise!!!

Meanwhile, something I keep wondering about is that if he spent a couple of years in England, where did he stay??? I've heard the term "billetted" which I assume means a sort of board and room in a private family home?

If my uncle stayed with a family, would there be any way, at all, to go about finding out the names and address of the people he stayed with in England?

Thanks people.

[Regina]

OOOPS.....TOS means Taken ON Strength.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Vets_Dottir
Meanwhile, something I keep wondering about is that if he spent a couple of years in England, where did he stay??? I've heard the term "billetted" which I assume means a sort of board and room in a private family home?

If my uncle stayed with a family, would there be any way, at all, to go about finding out the names and address of the people he stayed with in England?

Correct. This summer at the Beltring show I spoke to a gentleman who told me a Canadian soldier was billeted in their house during WW2. The soldier told his mother he would make sure the family would benefit from this and during his stay he provided the family with large numbers of food coupons. Thus there was no shortage of food during the years he stayed there. All coupons were signed by "Captain" and then the soldiers name, which the family found strange as he wasn't a captain as all (a corporal, if I recall correctly). When the soldier moved out, they found loads and loads of food coupon sheets. They recontructed the soldier was a printer and had been printing his own food coupons!

Anyhow, I wonder if billeting was a much documented process. I understand the military more or less went around the houses in a village to ask if and how many soldiers could be housed.

Good luck in your search!

Hanno

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra When the soldier moved out, they found loads and loads of food coupon sheets. They recontructed the soldier was a printer and had been printing his own food coupons!

Anyhow, I wonder if billeting was a much documented process. I understand the military more or less went around the houses in a village to ask if and how many soldiers could be housed.

Good luck in your search!

Hanno [/B]

Hi Hanno... and thanks a lot for this little story. I LOVE the intiative of that soldier (even if it was a little wrong it was a lot "right" if hungy people were fed)

My guess is that there probably wasn't a lot of record keeping for the housing/billetting.

I have a really BIG curiousity about the daily lives and habits of the soldiers stationed overseas. Sort of "What was...all in the life of day of the life of a soldier, at work and at ease, when living overseas during WW2" In this case I'm particularly interested in the Royal Winnipegs my Uncle "hung out and worked with"... maybe I should take this curiosity to the RWR's museum website

Thanks again Hanno...very interesting!!! Karmen

Hi.

I finally received the "Commemorative Name Certificate" from the Manitoba Geographical Names place. (I requested it BEFORE I requested my Uncle's service records! Waitedabout 7 or so months for this certificate!)

Its 11 x 15, came in a mailing tube. Any relative can get a certificate for their own family member so commemorated...$20 plus postage etc equals about $27.00. I figuredsome of you might wantan idea beforehand of what you'll getinthe mail if you send away fro a certificate...here goes:

Its a big map of Manitoba with a red Maple Leaf marking the spot on the map where the lake is. shows longitude and latitude, is signed by the Manitoba Representative and the Minister of Conservation. The certificate is black, white, red, and pale blue for the water.

The top of the certificate says -in red ink and fancy script:

Commemorative Name Certificate

On the map face is written:

Edward Smith Lake
named after
Rfn. Edward Smith

To the right side from the map, there is a little window illustration of the "water" with "Edward Smith Lake" written on it.

A stamp of "Manitoba" and a Buffalo at the bottom.
A poem by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:

"Lives of great men all remind us
We can make our lives sublime,
And, departing, leave behind us
Footprints on the sands of time."

----------------------
MORE good news: I had a couple of emails from 2 people who know someone in town (here) who can help me understand my uncles service records. One man is with the armed forces. I'm really looking forward to talking with him, although thanks to JIM's thread and in here, you people are helping me a lot, because Jim is asking many of the questions I have THANKS JIM!!!! And thank you all again for any and all help you've given me so far.

Hi everyone.

NO ... I have NOT forgotten about my Uncle or my goals of writing etc ... I would like to hav my "stuff" together to have something written/completed before June 6 2004, toshare where-ever it counts ... MEANWHILE...

a wonderful SURPRIZE ... but a littlebit of a glitch.

A CLOSE TO ME relative has (i DON'T believe this part!!!!!!) a PHOTO ... what she calls the "MISSING IN ACTION" photo of our Uncle packed away in some boxes buried in her basement!!! She has PROMISED to dig it out and make a copy to send to me ... but I worry she may not ... so if you all could dome a wonderful favor and imagine in your mind my ---relative ---- doing the RIGHT THING ... maybe the force of us all will "move" her to do it.

Of COURSE... I'll post the photoin here asap. THAT is a given.

Thanks... Carman

Hi everyone. Just a little update on a couple, or so, things.

1) no ... haven't had help with my Uncle's records yet. My fault ... will do yet though.

2) CommonWealthWarGraves replied to an email I sent them in August (yes... they DO respond eventually) If I send scanned imagee of my Uncle's birth data etc from his records, the site will correct and update his info. Theyhavehim listedas age 25 ... in actuality, he was 21 at time of death. Don't know if they can doanything regards his headstone date though. Time will tell.

3) Will wait to see if I actually get a copy of that photo of my Uncle ... and scan and send that TOGETHER with the age verification so both that and photo can be put onsite.

4) RWR's ... there is a book commemorating specifically Royal Winnipeg Rifles ... someone is sending me a complimentary copy. Its in the mail as I speak.

As soon as I have all the details and info about this book, I will let GEOFF know, and he will let you-all know all about it asap ... I truly know nothing about it, how many copies, if its for sale, by whom, etc ... GEOFF may find out himself and let you know anyways.

Lest We Forget.

Carman

http://www.mts.net/~rwpgrif/

I just discovered, this morning, from someone who told me this:

Royal Winnipeg Rifles Museum has a
Special ROLL OF HONOUR for JUNE 8, 1944
on their site.

UN-fortunately, I can NOT view the Roll ... I'm PDF incapable. nuts!

Here is the link for anyone who wants to view it though. I don't know how long it's been up on the site, but I don't recall EVER seeing it there before.

Carman