British 4.2-inch Heavy Mortar

[Hanno Spoelstra]

I can´t find much info on this weapon on the internet, and am interested to learn more about it in relation to the Carrier, 4.2 inch Mortar (T16).

Is this picture depicting the correct type?


Source: http://www.mortarsinminiature.com/photo_shop.htm

Thanks,
Hanno

[Neil Ashley]

Hanno

You do have the correct Mortar. Attached (hopefuly) is a page from the long out of print book WW2 Fact Files on Mortars and Rockets.

There is another late war version which has wheel's on the base plate allowing it to be towed behind a jeep. This type remained in British Army service untill the 1960's. I believe the Dutch army retained stocks untill quite recently.

[Neil Ashley]

Having said it's original the legs could well be a post war mod looking at the pictures.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Neil Ashley
You do have the correct Mortar. Attached (hopefuly) is a page from the long out of print book W2 Fact Files on Mortars and Rockets.

Thanks!

There is another late war version which has wheel's on the base plate allowing it to be towed behind a jeep. This type remained in British Army service untill the 1960's.

Would that be this one?

source

I believe the Dutch army retained stocks untill quite recently.

As far as I know, the Dutch Army has the 120-mm Brandt mortar. In 2004 it was phased out from regular infantry units, but remains in service with the Air Mobile Brigade and Marines. A number of surplus mortars were sold to Belgium in 2004.

If you have a specific reference to the 4.2-inch mortar in Dutch Army reserve, I'd like to know more details as I have an Army contact and can see if and when they were removed from stock (and to try a few are kept from being scrapped!).

H.

[Neil Ashley]

Hanno

I have no further information on the Dutch Guns.

Some one just told me that a dealer friend had tried to purchase some but he was told that they all had to be chopped up.

The gun in your original photograph seems to have some significant modications to my pictures. There was an American 4.2" Mortar but this looks significantly different again. I am not a where of any 100% original 4.2" Mortars in private ownership in Europe.

I believe there made be some in Australia. Rod Keys? may have been advertising one some time ago.

[Tony Smith]

There are several towed 4.2in Mortars in private hands in Aust. John Belfield's museum has one, Cowra has one, the Gold Coast musuem has one (For sale!), and there are one or two in private collections. All highly sought after for their 8.25-10 tyres for fitment to a 6pdr AT gun! These were in Aust Army reserve stocks intil the mid 80's.
The 4.2in Mortar pictured at the top of this thread is a rarer version, but the one pictured is from the Bandiana museum.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Neil Ashley
Some one just told me that a dealer friend had tried to purchase some but he was told that they all had to be chopped up.

Which is typical for Dutch surplus. Anything armoured or capable of firing is to be sold to friendly nations or has to be scrapped. It would make you cry to see what has been melted down at Corus' IJmuiden plant during the past decades - even though the revenues ended up in the UK

The gun in your original photograph seems to have some significant modications to my pictures. There was an American 4.2" Mortar but this looks significantly different again.

Indeed the American 4.2-inch mortar was an entirely different weapon.

The one pictured above looks similar to the one below, but yet there are differences which I can't explain. Who can tell what the (wartime) different models are of the British 4.2-inch mortar?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
the Gold Coast musuem has one (For sale!)

That would be these guys? http://www.collectorsarmoury.com.au/

All highly sought after for their 8.25-10 tyres for fitment to a 6pdr AT gun!

You go and buy one then, keep the wheels and ship the stuff you scrap to me

H.

[Neil Ashley]

Hanno

These pictures show the towed version of the 4.2" Mortar as used by British Airborne forces post-war.

This version would have been introduced very late war and probably saw no war-time service.

The pictures would appear to match the trailer version you posted earlier.

[Neil Ashley]

Pictures from the Wolwich Firepower Museum.

[KiwiKev]

I am interested in any detailed photos of the Mortar Platform / Trailer shown above or if anyone has a manual for one
Regards
kev

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Neil Ashley
Picture from the Wolwich Firepower Museum.

Thanks Neil. It seems this mortar is allowed to venture outside for the occasional event...


Source: Woolwich Invasion Photos

[sapper740]

Does anyone have a full colour pic of a 4.2 inch mortar round along with the stencilling on the side? I'm wanting to paint my inert round to look like a live one. Thanks!

CHIMO!

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

The scene in Saving Private Ryan where they're in the shellhole on the street and they are smacking the bottom of the shells against the baseplate then throwing them.Is this factual and was it a well known tactic?

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by sapper740
Does anyone have a full colour pic of a 4.2 inch mortar round along with the stencilling on the side? CHIMO!

No colour pic, but will an ID/markings diagram do?

[sapper740]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
No colour pic, but will an ID/markings diagram do?

This will be very helpful, thanks!


:idea: CHIMO! :idea:

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Personnel of the Saskatoon Light Infantry (M.G.) with a 4.2-inch mortar, Militello, Italy, 22 August 1943

(L-R): Privates E.R. Andrews and J. Gallant, Corporal J.T. Nash, Private F.J. Dockerill

Credit: Lieut. Jack H. Smith / Canada. Dept. of National Defence / Library and Archives Canada / PA-188916

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
No colour pic, but will an ID/markings diagram do?

More of these can be found here: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/stephen.johnson/arms/

H.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Photo No.: B 10448
Photographer: Wilkes (Sgt) No 5 Army Film & Photographic Unit
Title: THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORTH-WEST EUROPE 1944-45
Collection No.: 4700-29
Description: 4.2-inch mortar of the 2nd Kensington Regiment, 49th (West Riding ) Division in action at Turnhout, Belgium, 1 October 1944.
Period: Second World War
Date: 1 October 1944
Copyright: Crown copyright
Access: Unrestricted
Colour / B&W: Black and white
Type: Official photograph

[Tony Smith]

The 4.2in towed mortar in the stowed position:

[Hanno Spoelstra]

This line-up is at the Army Museum at Beijing, China. Fourth in line looks like the British 4.2-inch mortar.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Here's one in use with a Canadian unit (source). Note the mortar trailer is towed by a 15-cwt truck.

[Doug Knight]

Hi

A technical question on British 4.2-inch mortar base plates. The history of RCEME in North-west Europe notes that there were problems with the baseplate essentially being beaten into the soft ground on firing. It is not specific about the solution.

The Canadian War Museum has a large square metal carrier that the baseplate fits into, with four rope handles. It could just be a carrier, or it could be an additional strengthened baseplate for soft ground. The mortar manuals are silent on the problem.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Doug Knight

[Hanno Spoelstra]

From Equipment Used By The Infantry Regiments:

As the war progressed it was realised that at heavier mortar was needed to provide more support, especially for the infantry units and so the 4.2-in Mortar (pictured left) was developed, based upon the Chemical Weapons Design from the Great War. The British version differed from the US one as the latter had a rifled barrel. The 4.2-in Mortar was a simple and rugged design and used a wheeled base plate for easier movement.

It was first used in North Africa, by the Chemical Warfare Companies of the Royal Engineers at El Alamein using conventional ammunition. However, from about mid-1943 the Divisional Machine Gun Battalions (one per Infantry Division) and Independent Machine Gun Companies (one per Armoured Division) were converted to included one Mortar company or Platoon respectively operating 4.2-in mortars. For an armoured division's Independent MG Company an extra platoon was added with 4 mortars.

4.2" Mortar, Data:
Calibre (in/mm): 4.2/107
Ammunition: HE/Smoke
Weight (Unloaded) (kg/lb.): 599/1320.6
Length (mm/in): -
Rate of fire: -
Bomb Weight (kg/lb.): 9.08/20.02
Effective Range (m/yards): 3750/4100


http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/836/4_2Mortar.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

More details here: http://www.wwiiequipment.com/mortars.aspx

[Hanno Spoelstra]

4.2" mortar unit in action at 's Hertogenbosch, Holland, 1944. Note the 10-cwt trailers.


http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/show...37060&size=big

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Surviving example of the towed version: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...haosef-4-1.jpg
On display at the Batey ha-Osef Museum, Israel

[horsa]

Hey Hanno,

Great reference picture as that example has the earlier pattern wheels along with some other variations in features compared to most I've seen.

The wheel with holes around the edge with 5.00-5.25 tyres are the same as used on airborne trailers and some other WWII GS trailers. It seems these are what the towed mortar first came with and then late in 1945 they began changing the wheels out for the type found on 6-pounder guns with the lower profile wide tyres.

One of the features which I'd not seen on one of the mortars is this one has spring clips for the steel pivot bars. Very similar if not the same as those found on airborne jeeps for holding rifles and Bren guns. All others I've seen have hinged clamps to hold the bars and they look like smaller versions of the clamp used to hold the barrel while in transit.

[Keith Brooker]

Here are a few photos of the 4.2 inch mortar 1st photo shows them at Larkhill in1953 and the mortar that the firepower museum let me have for 30 mins,so that i could tow it with my Morris. photo of me with my morris and mortar. do you see any for sale?

[Keith Brooker]

more photos