Canadian contract jeeps (was: CDLV 505 Jeep Serial numbers...)

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I found some data in the copies that Clive sent me:

CARS 5-CWT 4 X 4 Ford & Willys as @ 30th April 1945, 148 units landed in UK but not assembled; 40 being assembled; 3 built and ready for delivery; 8,226 built and delivered, and 178 delivered during April 1945, with 39 to "A.A.I.".

Hope that is of interest.

[serge]

Hello

Colors pics enjoy every thread and last month in PARIS (FRANCE) there was a great exposition about old cars. The most of them were civilian cars builded before WWII but there was one ORIGINAL CANADIAN JEEP . On the windscreen of the girl , there was a pic before the retore job with it's original marking. Now she was exposed "as new".

I anybody able to explain the number on the classification bridge 5 . I believed that this number was for 15 CWT class.

Regards Serge

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Serge,

Thanks for the pictures of the Canadian jeep. Seems it is the same one as the one featured in the French book.

Originally Posted by serge

I anybody able to explain the number on the classification bridge 5 . I believed that this number was for 15 CWT class.

From http://milifax2003.tripod.com/bridgi...gs_part_1.html

"(a) Vehicles will be classified and marked according to the equivalent loads which they impose on a bridge. The classes are in multiplicity of one ton, from one ton upwards.
Vehicles can cross any bridge bearing a classification number with is the same or greater than its own classification. For example, a vehicle of class 12 can cross safely any bridge marked 12, 18 or 24. It cannot cross a bridge marked 5 or 9"

Although being much lighter, Jeeps and other light vehicles could be marked as a class 5 vehicle as they can cross a class 5 bridge (the lowest bridge class rating during WW2).

The attached pics show one jeep with a "2" on it's bridge classification sign, as when loaded it weighs 2 tons (more than 1, but less than or equal to 2), the other sports a "5" as it weighs no more than a class 5 bridge can carry!

A confusing subject, indeed. . .

Hanno

a177531-v6.jpg rkingjeep.jpg

[Barry Hampton]

Hanno, my understanding of Bridge class was 2 for a Jeep, 3 for a trailer, so combined weight equal to bridge rating 5, which is what Canada opted for as Jeep and trailer combination. Britain normally went for 2 for Jeep alone and 3 over 2 for Jeep and trailer.

[jeepingpw]

I have a
1943 GPW
DOD 3-30-43
ser. # 105568
"hood number" of 20369126 (I ran the serial number & DOD number through the web site www.g503.com & it gave me this "hood number")

Now heres the "Rest of the story"

Grandfather bought it in 1968 from a guy who said he found it in a vehicle dump in the Yukon. Year of find I don't know.

My dad got it in 1973 & ground off all coats of paint so don't know if CDN or US marked hood.

Dash plates are US.

I got it in 1983 & as a dummy, pulled the original engine & steering & replaced them with a Chev Saginaw steering box, Pinto 2.0L engine, T-90 trans.

I have the original trans/trans case & most major original components.

Don't know if it was a US issue for the Hwy, or a CDN issue for the Hwy?
Or the guy my grandfather bought it from has FOS!

Any ideas?

Thansk Kevin

[Ian McCallum]

Reade with interest various comments on early contracts.

I have an early slat supplied under CDLV-242 and it is my understanding that the first 4 contracts had Canadian specification changes/additions all others after that were as supplied off the assembly line.

As already stated CDLV 241 was for 500 vehicles (home service) and CDLV 242 for 1500 vehicles destined for overseas service. Production of both contracts ran simultaneously within the chassis serials already mentioned all being produced within February 1942; hence all iron bar stock slat grill. Mine was manufactured on 13th.February 1942 with chassis number 119696. All vehicles within these two contracts had the rounded tank well. All had the standard early Willys parts such as pancake air filter, extended oil filler tube, longer breather, brass/bronze windscreen catches, no provision for carbine holder, green steering wheel, speedo face, 'gas' gauge, although most appear to have the 50/50 Oil pressure gauge. Brass choke/throttle cable heads, rounded/square clutch /brake pedals, axles, gearbox/transfer box, half shaft end castings, no Jerry can holder.

Canadian spec items included a single electric wiper on the drivers side, standard manual type on passenger side, towing rings both front and rear. There are also two additional dash switches with a plate stipulating 'Axle' & 'Brake' operating a convoy light on the back axle and isolating the brake lights. As the convoy light and switches are the standard Canadian toggle switches and convoy light these were either supplied to be fitted of as is my understanding a retro fit after.

Have attached some pics and will post also some war time images.

Ian

[Ian McCallum]

Photo of Dash plate shown on the previous posting. Previous photo shows how I first saw it as the owner had painted over the original brass plate and then removed the paint from the raised text and data info. On further light rubbing of the paint the '242' became visible. I thought at first it was a unique CDLV blank plate!

Also attach two photos of slat grills, which I now realise have been previously posted,and one of what I believe to be a 505 contract jeep.

[Eric B]

Hello Kevin

I looked up on my data base.
Your GPW 105568 cannot be determined if it was a CDN or US vehicle.

There is no question it would have been in US service at one point.

If your GPW had been a CDN used vehicle it would have its markings on the side of the tub, or the side of hood. It would also have some markings on the windshield and rear bumperettes. If so it would have been in a batch of reconditioned vehicles Canada bought. So would have had the US hood number painted over.


Hello Iain
you have a very nice Canadian contract MB 119696. It looks complete and does not have the later upgrades to it. I.e the fender light, fuel container etc. Are the markings on it original?
Did you buy it restored or did you do it yourself?

I have 119694 being used in Canada during the war in Toronto.

I am still working on the much in depth CDN WW2 Jeep book. Just assisted Lloyd White with some CDN chapters on his Willy's MB series. His series actually helps me as now there is no need to duplicate the non CDN manuals and data.

Thanks

Eric

[Ian McCallum]

Hi Eric,

Interesting yours is only two serials out from mine, out of interest does it still have original data plates and does it show CDLV 241 0R 242? If 241 it shows both contracts were produced in parallel.

Cannot take the glory for its restoration although have known it for years. I originally rejected it because it was not a real jeep having a slat grill! Not so wise then! It was restored by Geordie Dey, starting about10 years ago, who is in Scotland and already had a 242 contract jeep I believe manufactured on 18.2.42.

It was originally owned by an estate but was totally unmolested although they did cut the rear panel into a tailgate and a floor section had to be replaced other than that 95% original. Blackout guards are repro's the rest original parts.

Hood number and markings not original to the vehicle and none were found although serials are in the right sequence.

Ian

[George McKenzie]

I have two Parts list manuals that CG Marshall Chief of staff issued to Major General E S Adams , when they built the Alaska Hi-way. for the MA and MB Jeeps .They are for the contract # W-398 -QM-11423 and W-398-QM-8888 .The registration numbers they list are for Willys and Ford .Would these numbers be of use to this subject ?

[marco]

Another Canadian contract Jeep.
B-squadron XII Manitoba Dragoons.
This photo was made in the UK, exact date unknown to me.

Marco

[chris vickery]

David, as I am still learning here, I am not enough of an expert to tell the slightest nuances from one another between the Willys and Ford versions. The pictures aren't clear enough for me to surmise as to the manuafacturer.

This being said, I believe that neither is a CDLV 505 contract, but US spec versions. My reasoning on this; both pictures show the jeeps with the left hand fender mounted B/O light and guard and do not appear to have the lift rings as issued on 505 contract jeeps.

The main difference from afar that one will note on 505 contracts is the absence of the fender B/O light as it is mounted in place of the LH headlight instead plus the addition of a bridge plate affixed over the RH headlight opening as well as the addition of the circular lifting rings.

As an interesting note, you have perhaps answered the very question I had.
You state a number, 8226 units built and delivered.
On CDLV 505 there were 3000 built with an additional 2000 built on CDLV 241/242 for a total of 5000 units.
A lttile simple math would show a difference of 3226 US spec units delivered to us, wouldn't it?

[wim sikkelbein]

toolholes in front bumper=Ford

As Chris pointed out earlier the canadian contracts were for willys jeeps and not ford so this one would not be delivered straight from the factory but via the american/british army perhaps?

resume:
+-5000 willys via canadian contract, straight from the factory
+-3000 ford/willys via american/british army?

correct me if i'm wrong

Wim

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I always thought that the Canadian Liverpool Jeep was a GPW....at the same time British-order GPWs were being assembled in the works.

Don't forget that this was up to end April '45....and assembly only finished in September and October 1945 depending on company, and even then there were still "saloon cars" that were on their way to Canadian order [must be C8A HUPs I think] that the Ministry of Supply said could be assembled in one or two depots that would contunue working for some time. In that respect we know that GM Limited in Bamber Bridge, near Preston, and Cleckheaton, Yorkshire, continued on until 1946. However I discount them as they were and had been for some years, refurbishing works. I suspect that LEP Transport would have been the last Chevrolet assemblers, with CMD in Slough the last Ford assemblers.

[chris vickery]

I have since learned that there were in fact Contract Demands issued for further jeeps, but these contarct delivered to US spec.
These included:

CDLV 1696 4000 units
CDLV 1801 1000 units
CDLV1802 1000 units

Now as far as how many actually made it overseas is a mistery as some were destined to stay domestic with some being sent over to Europe. It is also possible that near wars end these contract may have not been totally fulfilled or possibly even cancelled.

Apparently jeeps under these C/D were stock US spec, both Ford and Willys, and did not carry the special nuances that previous 505 contract did. This would also pertain to the special data plates as jeeps under the contracts supposedly wore the standard US style plates.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Here's a picture of Jeep reassembly "somewhere in England".

Here's another one, from CMH Online (follow link to view a large size scan):

England.
Jeep Assembly Line from which a completely assembled jeep can be produced every three minutes. Assembly Depot 0-640, Tidworth, Wilts, England. (8 Sep 43)
Signal Corps Photo: ETO-HQ-43-6606 (Lt. Ray)

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

That's apparently a MVA company in Hedge End (Tidworth) Depot in Wiltshire [Salisbury Plain]
Source:
http://www.army.mil/cmh/reference/No...TS/OD/OD13.htm

In 1942 there had been two Ordnance branch depots, Tidworth in the Southern Base Section (SBS) and Rushden in the Eastern Base Section (EBS), and Ordnance sections in six general depots-Ashchurch, Taunton, and Hilsea in SBS and Barry, Moreton-on-Lugg, and Sudbury in the Western Base Section (WBS). In 1943, as labor and materials became available, branch depots were activated at Warminster for combat vehicles and at Castle Bromwich for tools, and Ordnance had obtained space at two more general depots, Coypool at the port of Plymouth and Wern near Liverpool. Five vehicle parks had been added to the six in existence in 1942. This amount of space had been planned for theater reserve stocks in BOLERO and was obviously inadequate for OVERLORD
The program for the advance shipment of T/BA and T/E matériel alone, which went into effect in July 1943, entailed a sizable expansion in storage space: for example, the preshipped equipment for one infantry division included 2,089 vehicles....

...Maj. William R. Francis, who went to Treforest and studied the British Austin Motor Works assembly operation. "Yank ingenuity," as he expressed it, did the rest. With the help of two capable assistants, M. Sgt. Leroy Bell, shop foreman, and Pvt. George Phillips III, a time and motion study expert, he got the assembly line in operation by 18 August. Production rose when three newly arrived depot companies and the 497th MVA Company made a second shift possible. In the first three months of operation Ashchurch assembled 5,000 trucks.

On a smaller scale, Ordnance that fall began assembling 21/2-ton trucks at Taunton and lighter cased vehicles, such as jeeps and water trailers, at Hedge End (Tidworth) and eight other depots and vehicle parks. Between May and the end of December 1943, Ordnance troops accounted for about 43 percent of the 60,70.3 general purpose vehicles assembled in England. But this kind of work began to slacken toward the end of 1943 because the cased vehicles of the most wanted types were not arriving in sufficient numbers.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by chris vickery
Now, as far as paint goes, I know this is another point that has be debated over and over again.
In my opinion, and for purposes of practicality as well as speed of manufacture, I would tend to think that the Willys plant would have used the same paint as US spec jeeps and not have changed over to accomodate a few CDLV spec ones here and there.
My reasoning on this is simple; from what I have found out during my recent research, the CDLV 505 contract was carried out during 4 distinct times, April, July Aug and Sept of 1942 with a few built during each of these months as manufacturing schedule permitted. Commitment appears to have been biased, of course, to US requirements first.
Having said this, one would wonder why a plant would set up to change paint lines over to accommodate small runs for a day or two at a time. This would entail painting the bodies separately in Canada's choice of colour followed by a respray of the entire assembly to homogenize all the colours on the completed unit, as surely the drivetrain and other components as supplied would have been in the US choice of colour.
Secondly, on the jeep that I have aquired, it appears that my original paint as found beneath the data plates is indeed close to US 33070.
As is stands, my 505 is going to receive paint in the standard US colour of the period.

Chris, I fully support your restoration efforts, as you recognise the fact that you own a CDLV jeep and put effort and money into getting it right. But for the sake of history, I beg to differ with you on this issue.

If Canada placed an contract with Willys for jeeps to be built according to their specifications, they had to build them according to these specs. Otherwise they would not be accepted by the customer - period.

Of course, for reasons of practicality as well as speed of manufacture, the paint should be the same on all Jeeps ("any colour you want, as long as it is OD!"), but the same is true for the other typical CDLV specs. Why bother with those pesky details like lighting, axle lamp switch, lift rings on the front bumper? These are exacty the reasons why later during the war Canada did no longer bother and bought its jeeps "off the shelf".

But those CDLV spec jeeps were different from US spec ones. According to Brian's Military Jeeps (a recognised source), the Canadian MB's were not painted US olive drab, but the darker, browner 'Khaki No.3'. After aging, Khaki No.3 could actually look a lot close to OD, so it might be worthwile to further investigate if your jeep wasn't actually painted Khaki.

H.

[chris vickery]

Thank you Hanno, certainly worth further investigation.

I recently aquired the original contract regarding the requirements of Willys as it pertained to the additional equipment and specifications set forth. All the forementioned items are included on the contract, it is quite detailed but nowhere does it specify paint colour????

One would tend to think that something like this would have been mentioned on the contract demand... hmmmm.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by chris vickery
I recently aquired the original contract regarding the requirements of Willys as it pertained to the additional equipment and specifications set forth. All the forementioned items are included on the contract, it is quite detailed but nowhere does it specify paint colour????

One would tend to think that something like this would have been mentioned on the contract demand... hmmmm.

Great news, Chris! This is exactly the sort of source material we are looking for. I agree, if the colour was to be different from the standard OD, this should be mentioned on the contract. If it is not listed there, surely the CDLV jeeps were painted OD.

Could you share the contents of the original contract with us? Nowhere I can find the exact and complete details about CDLV jeeps. Some snippets here and there, it would be nice to compile a complete list of the specifications plus pictures here on MLU.

Thanks,
Hanno

[Barry Hampton]

My Jeep is 242 contract. Underneath brackets that have never been removed is the original light OD.

[chris vickery]

Hanoo, it is funny you should mention obtaining snippets here and there. this seems to be what I have been finding as well, as there is no definative one stop place to find all the info.
It seems some fellows with info are not exactly forthcoming in sharing, that is they hoard it for their own personal pleasure (its mine all mine mentality)
At any rate, it would be good to put all the Canadian contract info in one place.
I will try and get all the details down on the forum as time permits and I come across whatever I have.
I do value the opinions of all in this discussion and surely arguements will crop up on specific points.
As far as the colour thing goes, it seems to me that even the experts disagree on what is right or wrong.
Going from the paint as it appears on parts of my 505 contract jeep, they certainly appear to my eye to be the same as US 33070 colour.
Even the US based guys can't agree on specific colours on their own jeeps so this is one of these quandries that may or may not ever be answered. As for my jeep, it will be painted in standard US colour as found.
Thoughts anyone?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

"Headlamp guard (R), Willys part no. A-5448"

Pic courtesy of Dirk Leegwater who has these for sale.

[Barry Churcher]

I don't think changing paint colour for a certain contract would be much of an issue for a manufacturer. We have seen how the commercial vehicles come down the line and are painted all different colours. It is not a big deal to change from khaki to OD or back again. I believe that if the Canadian contract was for a certain colour it would be done. Vehicles are scheduled days ahead so that the proper parts are in the right spot when the vehicle comes down the line. Just a thought.
Barry

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Barry Churcher
I don't think changing paint colour for a certain contract would be much of an issue for a manufacturer. We have seen how the commercial vehicles come down the line and are painted all different colours. It is not a big deal to change from khaki to OD or back again. I believe that if the Canadian contract was for a certain colour it would be done. Vehicles are scheduled days ahead so that the proper parts are in the right spot when the vehicle comes down the line. Just a thought.

Barry, I concur. It really boils down to finding original contract specifications.
Chris, could you share the contents of the original contract you have?

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Nowhere I can find the exact and complete details about CDLV jeeps. Some snippets here and there, it would be nice to compile a complete list of the specifications plus pictures here on MLU.

Let's keep this thread alive by adding some pictures. I hope the CDLV Jeep experts will feed us with their detailed knowledge.

Single headlight with brush guard, but I cannot see lifting rings on the front bumper - CDLV 505 contract Jeep?

H.

A jeep ambulance of the Royal Canadian Army Medical Corps (R.C.A.M.C.) bringing in two wounded Canadian soldiers on the Moro River front south of San Leonardo di Ortona, Italy, 10 December 1943

a180097-v6.jpg

Credit: Lieut. Frederick G. Whitcombe / Canada. Dept. of National Defence / Library and Archives Canada / PA-180097

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Another one with single headlight with brush guard - are those chains fitted to lifting rings on the front bumper?

Canadian war correspondents in a jeep, Modica, Italy, 13 July 1943

(L-R): Peter Stursberg, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation; Ross Munro, Canadian Press; Captain Dave MacLellan, Public Relations Officer; Lieutenant Al Fraser, Canadian Army Film and Photo Unit.

a204808-v6.jpg

Credit: Capt. Frank Royal / Canada. Dept. of National Defence / Library and Archives Canada / PA-204808

[wim sikkelbein]

public archives of canada

Troopers of the Three Rivers Regiment in a jeep, England, 22 July 1942

PA-213504 MIKAN No.: 3599654

cdlv 242 with mickey mouse camouflage

a213504-v6 jeep three rivers england 22 july 1942.jpg

[wim sikkelbein]

public archives of canada
Private F.J. Dunn resting on his ambulance jeep while evacuating casualties south of Bad Zwischenahn, Germany, 29 April 1945

PA-205395 MIKAN No.: 3586347

how about this one

a205395-v6 medical jeep bad zwischenahn germany 29 april 1945.jpg

[M38CDNBill]

Originally posted by wim sikkelbein
Troopers of the Three Rivers Regiment in a jeep, England, 22 July 1942

Nice picture Win. However, I don't recognize the unit marking under the windshield driver side. The Three Rivers Regt was in the 1st Armoured Brigade (independent) and this markings is not the good one. Somebody has an answer?

Also, what is the signification of the inverse triangle with the "X" under the windshield? Is it possible to know what are the colors of this marking?