6x6 cmp gun tractor

[T. Metsovitis]

Hello all,

I'm looking for photos of the experimental CMP 6x6 field artillery tractor. I have only ever seen one photo of this beauty and would like to find more as I am building a model of it.

Thanks in advance

Fyll

[servicepub (RIP)]

I will be publishing a book, written by Roger Lucy, on WWII experimental Canadian equipment. The book, to be titled "Canada's Secret Weapons" will include several new photos as well as the story behind this vehicle.

[Les Freathy]

Whilst attending the trucks and tracks model show last week i collected the latest copy of Tankette and found these drawings by good friend and fellow modeller Mick Bell of a CMP 6x6 gun tractor. I will be contacting Mick shortly but meantime what do we know about this project. I have never seen it before and whilst discussing it with fellow MLUer Richard Allibone a Dutch fellow joined in and it turned out to be the owner of a resin model company, Giesbers who informed us it or they were built up from loads of left over componants from whom? Ford or Chevrolet and we were shown a 1/76 scale kit of the vehicle. What i would like to see are any photos and data of the said tractor so fellow members is there any info available
i look forward to the input with great interest
Cheers
Les

[Hanno Spoelstra]

The Canadians worked on a 6x6 gun tractor on a GM C60X chassis. My guess is that prototype is depicted in your drawings.
The Australians toyed with the idea as well, as can be read in Mike Cecil's article Chevrolet C60X in Australian Service:

There is a strong possibility that the Army also had a pilot model heavy artillery tractor built on a C60X, but unfortunately no details about the project have been located as yet. Interestingly, one chassis number, 28660M000012, is ‘missing’ from an otherwise unbroken sequence. If that chassis was used as the basis for the experimental heavy artillery tractor, then Army would have received a total of 121 chassis, which is consistent with the order for 120, plus the pilot model chassis.

More will undoubtedly be added by others.

HTH,
Hanno

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Canadian orders for the F60H had been cancelled before that prototype could have been put together although as we know # 13 Cab versions were completed for export. I had not known of the FAT version before as it was not in the 6-wheeler DND file that I have studied. Mind you neither was the "Super C60X", the Chrysler straight-eight prototype!

[Alan Brock]

How about these prototypes from a famous book.....

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Those are good scans...

FORD-SCAMMELL (Ontario registration 962 C) and CHEVROLET-SCAMMELL (963 C), possibly models 811-W and 1531 respectively. 6 x 4 with Scammell rear bogie. May have been DND numbers 38-1-53 and –54.

[Keith Webb]

Those prototypes were of course 6X4 but with the 4 rear wheels driven using a Scammell rear end as David mentioned, rather than the later F60H which had a trailing rear axle.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The Scammell bogie, and three were purchased by the DND, was also used in each of a Bedford- and Dennis- Scammmell prototype. Identical bogie in fact in 1938. For brief details see my article in VINTAGE ROADSCENE magazine.

To amplify Keith's comment, Ford did offer a "F60X" in 1940-41, and as mentioned before a Lincoln Zephyr V-12 -powered beastie.

F60H production ended for Canadian orders on 14th August 1941.

[Tony Smith]

The Australian Army had 6x6 Marmon-Herrington '40 and '41 trucks as the Local Pattern No5 (LP5) Gun Tractor and as a 3" AA Tractor.

[cliff]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
The Australian Army had 6x6 Marmon-Herrington '40 and '41 trucks as the Local Pattern No5 (LP5) Gun Tractor and as a 3" AA Tractor.

Any photos Tony?

Cheers
Cliff

[Mick Bell]

I drew the 6x6 FAT in response to a request from a Dutch friend and then built the master for Giesbers Models. I don't have the data with me at present, so will post a more detailed reply in a couple of days.

However, from memory, the 6x6 FAT was a prototype only. I'm not sure whether one or two were built, but the intention was that it could tow either the 25 pdr field gun, or 17 pdr anti tank gun. Presumably stowage arrangements in the rear compartment would have been altered to suit.

I did the drawing based on a fairly detailed data sheet and a set of Xerox type copies of photographs. I believe these were copied from Bart Vanderveen's collection.

Sorry this is a bit vague, I'll try to do better when I have my references to hand.

Mick

[Mick Bell]

Hello again,

I've found my (small) file on the 6x6 FAT and can offer the following information.

First there's a Vehicle Chassis Specification, rubber stamped B H Vanderveen collection, with the manuscript addition GM/Chrysler. The chassis manufacturer is stated as Chrysler Corporation of Canada Ltd and General Motors of Canada Ltd. It says Quantity Produced: 5. Applications: General Service, FAT. It does not specify how many of each, or which manufacterer's chassis were used for which purpose. The engine is stated to be a Chrysler 8 cylinder, 323.5 cu in, 140 bhp lump. Quite a pokey machine.

Next we have some Appendices, but I don't know what the master document is. They are:

Appendix A - Tools & Vehicle Equipment for Modified 6x6 FAT
Appendix B - 7B4 FAT - Tools & Equipment Stowage
Appendix G - Vehicle Dimensions
Appendix H - Vehicle Tools and Equipment - 17 and 25 Pdr Roles

Appendix A includes a Special Chrysler Tool. Interesting that we have a body designation, 7B4 in Appendix B.

Finally I have the Xerox photos, sadly of too poor quality to post here. I do have one electronic image of the FAT, which I'll try to atttach to this post (not done this before, so I don't really know how it works!).

When I did the drawing, given that the radiator mesh is diamond shaped I chose to call it a Chevrolet. Having read the specs again I would probably change it to Chrysler as only the Chrysler engine is given in the chassis spec sheet. Also, I would probaly alter the position of the front axle differential - why would it be on the right on a right hand drive vehicle?

Well, there we are, I hope this clears up some of the mystery, though it probably poses more questions than it answers.

Mick Bell

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

To date I only knew of one Chrysler-engined C60X, which we have all seen photos of, and now it appears that there were more. The chassis was strictly "General Motors", and Chryslers would have supplied the engines and possibly bodies?

[Mick Bell]

We haven't all seen pictures of the Chrysler C60X, I can't remember seeing it. Any chance you could post an image here please?

Interesting that the chassis were GMC with Chrysler automotive bits, is it documented?

Mick

[T. Metsovitis]

There was this side view of this CMP 6x6 FAT in an old issue of Classic Military Vehicles, must have been at least three or four years ago. Unfortunately this a scan of a scan of that pic. The original was lost when my previous PC crashed.



Fyll

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Your wish is my command!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The suggestion for the installation of the Chrysler straight-eight probabl;y arose out of the original clamour for a 6-wheeler better than the F60H. As mentioned before the Lincoln Zephyr V-12 was proposed by Ford of Canada as well as a "F60X". The V-12 was of course produced in rjd form but the fuel consumption would surely have been horrendous, and 12 plugs meant more leads, plus, plug caps, etc. The engine settled on was the GMC 270 although I wonder why they did not go for the 348 which Walkerville wassembled in 1940-41? My guess is that the 270 was becoming standardised at the time for military GMCs, although arguably lacked the power required and this fact was known at the time. The DND papers show that GMC, Mack, White and Dodge 6-wheeler trucks were considered before the C60X became a fait accomplii.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Here are the photos that I have for the 6x6 FAT. These will be appearing in Drive to Victory when this is printed in a year or two.
I don't have the text files at hand but will try to dig them out.

[cliff]

Originally posted by servicepub
Here are the photos that I have for the 6x6 FAT. These will be appearing in Drive to Victory when this is printed in a year or two.
I don't have the text files at hand but will try to dig them out.

Looks like it is going to be an excellent book Clive.

Cheers
Cliff

[Mick Bell]

Thanks for posting the C60X picture David, I don't recall seeing it before. I note it has some numbers stencilled on the driver's door. The 6x6 FAT also has a small number on the driver's door, just below the upper edge (unfortunately illegible) and a project number thus:

PROJ - E
549

Your forthcoming book looks excellent Clive, I'm looking forward to it already.

Mick Bell

[Mark W. Tonner]

Photo credit: DND
Interim 6x6 Pilot Vehicle:



and



Cheers

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

So how many of these Chrysler-engined beasties did they produce inthe end, and Clive: dod the DND papers exist do you know? They are not mentioned in the file that I acquired a copy of on 6-wheelers.

[Les Freathy]

What can i say guys, seems we are never tested to the full on this forum. Excellent material and Clive i second Cliff the books has the looks of a stunner and thanks Mick for starting it all off with the drawing believe it or not Richard bagged the kit at the show yours truly got bugger all, oh well will have to contact the guy in holland somehow now ive seen the photos i want to make the model
well done all
cheers
Les

[mike mckinley]

great stuff!! would i be correct to assume that if the 6x6 fat had been put into production, that the limber would no longer be part of the combination?

mike

[servicepub (RIP)]

That's correct, the rounds are carried on the side of the vehicle (as can just be seen in one of my photos, but better shown further up)

[Ivica]

Here is one:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...3519&start=480

BTW, thaks for the tip!

[aj.lec]

That is different
I wonder what running gear or chassis it was designed and built on

Keeping in Bob's phoenix reproduction it would make a great project

Did they make one on a chev base ?

[Grant Bowker]

Without actually knowing anything about the prototype shown...
I assume it would be 6x6, so most likely based on the C60X, sometimes called Chevrolet (like the other C8 to C60 series), sometimes called GMC for the 270 CID engine. There is mention of another prototype C60X powered by an inline 8 Chrysler flathead, no idea if this might have been the FAT or not. The brake booster etc. on the C60X are not like the other C60 models. I think the C60X brakes are similar to those on a pre-war COE or the AFKX? series, but this is not certain.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Going round in circles . . . . see 6x6 cmp gun tractor and you will see where this picture was originally posted.

Threads now merged.