Captured F15 image

[Keith Webb]

Just found this on a Andrei Bogomolovis page
Quite an interesting image of a Ford cab 11 under temporary new management.

[John Sliz]

I wonder how they mounted the 2cm Flak gun?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I wonder whether this was one of the F15s taken to France in June 1940 post-Dunkirk and then left behind by the Canadians? This is a sad picture if it is....brand new trucks assembled in Southampton, delivered to the 1st Division and then left behind after a pointless attempt. Any thoughts anyone please? I always thought that these 50 trucks were welcomed by the Wehrmacht as a nice gift. Possibly rebuilt/repaired in Ford, Antwerp, Rotterdam or Poissy?

[Gordon Yeo]

Farley Mowat was an officer in the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment which went to France with the 50 trucks and 10 universal carriers.From his book The Regiment
"On Monday morning the order came to destroy all vehicles by fire.But we couldn't burn the trucks because it would have set the wood and chateau alight and drawn every German plane for a hundred miles,so we did the next best.We went to work on all those lovely trucks with pick axes;punctured tires,gas tanks and radiators;jammed up bodies;sheared off engine parts and cracked the blocks.Then we destroyed the equipment in them;the whole Regiments equipment"
No it doesn't seem probable that the truck in the photo is a 1st Division Vehicle.

[Gordon Yeo]

The picture of the F15 doesn't show typical French country side,could it be taken in the West Desert.When Tobruk fell in 1942 the German windfall lists 500,000 gal. of petrol and 2000 vehicles.It would seem reasonable CMP vehicles would be in the take.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I am grateful Mr Yeo! However I have two replies:

1. Despite the ruination of the left-behind trucks, the Germans had the wherewithal and facilities to rebuild the thousands of allied trucks and cars left behind after the fall of France, and this work was contracted to various Ford Plants in Amsterdam, Antwerp, and Poissy, plus General Motors in Antwerp and Gennavilliers. GM had a contract for non-Ford vehicles and engines, as well as Chevrolet, GMC, Bedford. That said the truck looks too nice, neat and tidy and shows no sign of any rebuild into an Umschauwagen. I believe that it is well-known that vehicles captured in France and the Low Countries ended up in North Africa, so the location I would have thought was no guide here. Perhaps others can confirm either way please?

2. I believe that this truck was one of the 3,000 delivered to Alexandria in early 1941 onwards under Contract S/M 2002. Capture in North Africa makes much more sense.

Thanks for stimulating my thought processes.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Hanno, do you know if the General Motors Continental SA sales facility at Rotterdam was used during the war by the Germans?

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

I agree with Dadvid that this vehicle was lilkely captured in North Africa from the British. Note the Afrika Korps palm tree and swastika on the door.

The photo is a very good one of a captured CMP in North Africa. If you look in the Ballentine's books and books about the Afrika Korps you will find photos of other captured Canadian made vehicles such as a burning C60L with a broken back, a 3 ton with Nazi flag on the bonnet. Bart Vandreveen showed a captured Dodge D8A in North Africa.

WWII reenactors should note that CMPs are a LOT cheaper than original German WWII trucks, and a lot more accurate than post-war Russian, German etc.

I believe the gun is a 2 cm (aka 20 mm to North America and UK) Flak 30 model. My reference books on the 20mm are in storage, but here is a web site dealing with the Afrika Korps use of the 2 cm Flak 30.
http://cosmos.oninetspeed.pt/dak/dak/flak20mm30.htm

As I recall there is a photo of a captured Flak 30 (?) in the back of a CMP 15 Cwt Cab 12 in the back photo section of Bill Gregg's edition of the 1944 Data Book. That gun is manned by Canadian soldiers, though the travese would be very limited.

For general info on 2 cm (20mm) guns by Canada and UK, see my web page:
http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/20_mm_aa_guns.htm

Here is a photo of a Canadian made truck with a British Polsten gun mounted. Note the low sides for clearance. Tha cab roof is on (in rains in the UK I hear) but there is a stop rail to keep the gunner from parting the driver's hair.
http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/images/20...screenV4N2.jpg

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Z 5194641 to 5195730 SM 2485
[1942] TRUCK 15 CWT. 4 X 2 AA (20 M.M.) CMP C.15 8421

Z 5195731 to 5196440 SM 2485Truck 15 cwt 4x2 (AA 20 mm)
A.A. NO.1 MK. III C101WF F.15

2,000 C.15 AND F.15 TRUCKS CONVERTED BY DENNIS MOTORS LIMITED, GUILDFORD, SURREY TO 20-M.M. A.A. GUN PLATFORM WITH VAUXHALL MOTORS LIMITED MANUFACTURED GUN CARRIAGE-CUM-MOUNT.

STOP PRESS! Just found out the Vauxhall history here, and it was DENNIS BROS. LIMITED, Guildford, not D Motors. The first trials for the mounting were on a Bedford MW. The book I have says that the cannon were built in the USA and supplied under Lend-Lease or built in the UK.

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Z 5194641 to 5195730 SM 2485
[1942] TRUCK 15 CWT. 4 X 2 AA (20 M.M.) CMP C.15 8421

Z 5195731 to 5196440 SM 2485Truck 15 cwt 4x2 (AA 20 mm)
A.A. NO.1 MK. III C101WF F.15

2,000 C.15 AND F.15 TRUCKS CONVERTED BY DENNIS MOTORS LIMITED, GUILDFORD, SURREY TO 20-M.M. A.A. GUN PLATFORM WITH VAUXHALL MOTORS LIMITED MANUFACTURED GUN CARRIAGE-CUM-MOUNT.

Ah, that's one of these. (below - markings now corrected to photo evidence) Not very common. . . . . . .

Never seen or heard of any Chev versions and they are all way after Dunkirk. Would be interesting to see how the Wehrmacht fitted the FlaK 38.

R.

Originally posted by FV623
Would be interesting to see how the Wehrmacht fitted the FlaK 38.

Which on second look is more like a FlaK 30.

R.

[Tony Smith]

I've included the caption from these photo's from the book "Kiwi Scorpions". 37mm single shot Bofors? Any comments?

Originally posted by Tony Smith
I've included the caption from these photo's from the book "Kiwi Scorpions". 37mm single shot Bofors? Any comments?

Fascinating stuff, thanks for sharing it with us.

Now who are these chaps?

R.

[Tony Smith]

Lemon squeezer hats identify these chaps as New Zealanders. The white fern leaf on a black background is the divisional sign for the 2nd New Zealand division. I can't make out the numeral on the unit serial, is it a 3 or 9? In 1940-41, 3 was the serial allocated to 4th Field Regt, NZ Arty amd 9 was allocated to 7 Field Company, Div Engineers. I can't find another period when both 3 and 9 appear in the lists for 2 NZ Div, but each crop up from time to time. However, without an accurate date of the photo, it would be hard to identify the unit because of these changes over time. For example, by the time the 2nd NZ Div arrived in Italy, the unit serial 3 was allocated to 36 survey battery.
The line of trucks look like Morris's, perhaps someone more conversant with those could offer a suggested date?

Re my previous post: does anyone have any issues with the description of a "37mm single shot Bofors"? It's not something I've heard of before and I was hoping someone might recognise the artillery piece.

[Mike K]

A few years back , I showed the above pic to a NZ historian who suggested the pic was taken at camp Mardi ? or Marni in Egypt . The terrain does look like Egypt . It is a line up of Morris PU's . The pic here is of a restored one that lives in Squirrel Heath near Southampton . Aussie made tyres saved this vehicle from the scrap heap .

Mike

FV623 is digging out the good piccies from his archives ! Keep em coming .

[Mike K]

oops sorry , I meant to post this pic

Mike .

[Barry Churcher]

Tony
Thanks for posting the photos of the 37mm Bofors. I have one of these " single shot Bofors ". It is very difficult to find any photos or information on these units. It is an anti-tank gun and was only effective very early in the war. It was purchased from Bofors in Sweden by both the allies and the Germans. Mine has a beautiful Swedish crest on the barrel, and Swedish crowns on all the brass pieces. The ones in your photos have had the trails removed and it looks like the tires also. We call the tires on mine, Santa Claus tires because the tread says HOHOHO. Not your typical military design. You can see the hinges on the shield and those armour flaps fold up for travelling. I have mine marked as German and we have used it in re-enactments. A little black powder and a little rifle powder gives you a pretty impressive flash and bang.
Barry

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

If that's the one I'm thinking of, did that not at one time belong to Don S.? If so, I remember it well... and it IS a nice piece!

Originally posted by Mike Kelly
FV623 is digging out the good piccies from his archives ! Keep em coming .

Hmmmm, Ballard jr has expanded the archive quite a lot lately. I shall have to see what unusual M-C stuff I can blag for a scan.

R.

[Pete Ashby]

David

here's a picture of an MW mounting a 20mm credit to Observer's FVD revised edition 1972 Bart Vanderveen. This picture I'm sure appered in Bedford's own publication produced just after the war, my Father used to have a copy, but sadly it is now lost I can't remeber the title. As a child I loved to look at the pictures.

Pete

[Barry Churcher]

Hi Geoff
I don't think mine belonged to Don. I have had it about 10 years or more and before that it belonged to a chap near Ottawa. It is my understanding that a couple came out of the US and this is where he got it. Maybe Don's was the mate. It has 4 boxes of spare parts that are real nice. With it I got some empty brass shell casings. Apparently the day before I picked up the gun the shell casings were live! I wish I had been there to see the procedure for removing these rounds. I hear it went something like this.
--place round in chamber
--close breech
--etc. etc.
I guess it was pretty impressive for a small gun. Now the gun just sits in the chicken ranch so you and Hanno probably saw it when you were there.
Have a Happy and Prosperous New Year.
Barry

[Rob van Meel]

Hi,

Not that you would be interested, but the lonely motorcycle leaning on its side stand is a BSA WM20. (Triumph and Ariels had a different sidestand).

Rob

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Same type of conversion, 2cm FLAK on 60-cwt CMP truck.

Source: Orig. Foto Flak auf LKW in Afrika #60

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

The Flak gun in the F15 at he start of this string of discussion is a Flak 30.

The one in the 60 Cwt via Hanno is a Flak 38 judging by its distinctive catchnet arch. One of these Flak 38 is for sale in the UK by C&C Military Service for GBP 5,850

They also have a Ram tank for restoration at GBP 2,000 (no turret, no tracks?)

Photo ad inside front cover of Military Machines International magazine Vol. 3 No. 8 January 2004.

[Colin Macgregor Stevens]

There is a full page on these guns in WW2 FACT FILES - Anti-Tank Weapons by Peter Chamberlain and Terry Gander (black softcover, letter sized, 1/4" thick)

Two photos in it show Commonwealth/British troops with these guns. One in Western Desert mounted on a British 15 Cwt. another one being hand towed (a short distance presumably). Another photo shows one in Polish service.

Book says "Official designation was "Ordnance Q.F. 37 mm Mk. 1 on Carriage 37 mm Mk. I*. In 1940 a batch of guns intended for the Sudan was appropriated for use by the 7th Armoured Division in North Africa, and some were used in UK as training weapons." (Ibid p. 36)

By the way, the picture above showing one mounting in an "F30" is incorrect. F30 was a CMP and the vehicle shown is a MCP (Modified Conventional Pattern).

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I wonder whether this was one of the F15s taken to France in June 1940 post-Dunkirk and then left behind by the Canadians? This is a sad picture if it is....brand new trucks assembled in Southampton, delivered to the 1st Division and then left behind after a pointless attempt. Any thoughts anyone please? I always thought that these 50 trucks were welcomed by the Wehrmacht as a nice gift. Possibly rebuilt/repaired in Ford, Antwerp, Rotterdam or Poissy?

David, although we extensively discussed this in the thread CMPs first used in action: June 1940, France, there are still a lot of questions to be answered. Could it be possible the 50+ F15s left behind in France were rebuilt and then shipped out to the Afrika Korps?


However, the truck in question has the welded steel 2B1 body, introduced late in 1940. So this F15 could not have been captured in France.
As we can safely assume all CMP F15 4x2 trucks captured in France had the 2A1 15-cwt GS cargo body of bolted wood construction (which was very similar to the GS body on contemporary British 4x2 15-cwt trucks such as the Bedford MW), all we have to do now is to find pictures of them in German use...

H.

[Nigel Watson]

OK so I'm not able to do very much just now so here's some photies courtesy of (BA)Histoire & Collections.


Field Mod?

Real deal?

Nigel

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Hanno, I agree with you...most likely F15 to S/M 2002..see W & T re 'Alpha Packs' being assembled in Alexandria!! I would imagine that the 50 F15s captured in France were used in 'Barbarossa' and not shipped on to the Afrika Corps. Much more likely that these were locally captured.

The 3-tonner was probably to S/M 2019.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Nigel, thanks for the pics. That "Field Mod?" looks worse than a Blitz after working for 50 years on an Aussie farm! Could be a severly battered version of the "Real deal?", though. The thread CMP 2-pdr Portee shows another of these 2-pdr Portees captured by the German Army near Bir Harmet in North Africa:

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Those 2-pdr Portees were to S/M 2028..which made me realise that they were officially 30-cwt A/tank trucks! That said they used the C-GT chassis as we all know...so therefore can we say that the C-GT and thus the F-GT chassis were 30-cwt, 101" w.b.? Does that make sense when assessing the Indian Pattern FATs?

The # 42 cab 2-pdr Portee chassis was based on the C-GT # 12 C-GT/FAT chassis, and it seems that the chassis numbers were mixed in with standard C-GTs. Oshawa thought that they were the same McCoy ..does this make the C-GT a 30-cwt. capacity as well as the Portee?