Corowa 2008 Proposal

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Well-spoken, and I thank you for your very professional situational appreciation of the event as proposed.

I too believe that this might well be one of the most memorable Corowa events of all time, but only if the scope of the operation and the complexity of all its elements are taken into consideration.

My military perspective is simple: you deal with the professionals in the trades whose support you require. If you need fire support, you talk to your FOO; if you need armour support, you ring up an Armoured Corps liaison officer; air, the same. They know their jobs.

This is no different. People such as yourself and Keith Adam seem ideally placed to engineer and oversee such a grand project as that envisioned for '08, and I think that if this is to happen at all, it must be with your combined expertise in the forefront.

Otherwise, the risks would seem too great, with results potentially too terrible to contemplate. All it would take would be for one child to be squished flat to see the end of all of it, forever.

Thanks again, Ian; now let's all knock heads together and get this job done!

Geoff

Originally posted by Tony Smith
Yappy, for YOU ONLY it will provided in the format of Talking Parrot holding up pencil sketches. You DO understand the accent of an Aussie Parrot? (Arrk! There's Jif, there's Jif! Squark!)

I shall have to tutor the Oz Parrot in Yappy as a Second Language then should be no problem

Now ... I'd best "un-hijack" this thread I highjacked for off topic silliness as it's a serious conversation going on right now ... I apologize to anyone possibly offended by my hijack ... now back to subject at hand

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bob Moseley
I don't know what personal or political issues are present here and I don't care. All I want to do is to continue attending Corowa without all this crap.

.......................................

I have left one club here in Adelaide due to politics and self-interest groups and I am certainly not going to entertain more politics that interfere with my hobby, especially at Corowa.

Thanks for your input, Bob, I'm sure it's appreciated. I'm also sure your curiosity will be satisfied and your questions answered in short order.

Regards the quoted bits above, I'd like to take the liberty to comment.

Knowing all of you as I do (and will continue to do, more of you and better), I am confident that the scope of Corowa has expanded to the point where it's become an entity unto itself, its future only limited by the imaginations of those who choose to attend as either participants or guests.

For 27 consecutive years, this great event has come to define ex-military vehicle collecting in the southern hemisphere, and so it shall continue despite differing points of view; the legions of those who have made it what it is demand no less.

I am sure that your words as written above reflect the majority opinion both here and there, and that ultimately, conflicting perspectives will merge to ensure, as they always have, that the great circle that is Corowa will continue unbroken.

I salute you all and can state categorically that I am proud to have become a part of all this.

[Ian Pullen]

I believe that we as enthusiasts should accept this as an annex to the event, not an alternative as some think is happening.

I feel I must ask at this stage has anyone from the executive committee actually spoken to Keith Adam and not just given a sharp electronic reply to his correspondence? and if not, then why??

As an interested party I ask the committee the following questions:

1. Is KVE on organising or controlling body?

2. Would the executive committee be willing to sit in neutral ground and discuss this entire situation? Perhaps at Corowa within the next few weeks.

3. Is KVE now actively trying to book the Airfield and all of the surrounding areas to actually do the proposals and ideas that Mr Adam has put forward, but under the KVE name?

As many have already said that they will back the airfield idea, it seems that it is going to happen anyway. Despite who is actually the official (or unofficial) organiser.

[Richard Farrant]

I have been following this subject for sometime. Since I have attended Corowa Swim-In week on four differnet occasions, then I feel qualified to make some comments, especially as I know many of those involved in the event.

The creating "Year of the Tracked Vehicle" as next year's theme, was obviously going to attract those with heavier and larger vehicles than carriers. Knowing Ball Park caravan site, well enough, it is blatently obvious for numerous reasons, that the site is not practical for any tracked vehicles over carrier size. I am agreeing with Ian Pullen all the way on this. Safety when manouvering, ground damage, nowhere to exercise them on-site, etc.

Keith Adam presented a thoroughly good proposal, I remember visiting Corowa airport some years ago when he ran his event there, it makes sense for the heavier and larger vehicles to be camped and located there. They then have direct access to the bush tracks for the off road drive.

As in the UK, many tank owners will not have their own transporters, so would have to hire one to drop the vehicle off and collect again at the end of the event. This in mind, it would not be logistical to have these heavy tracked vehicles at Ball Park, or adjacent, making it difficult to get to the airport for the off road runs, display, etc. Some of the tracked vehicles that might come, could be impractical for driving on bitumen roads, due to steel cleated tracks, etc, causing damage, even rubber padded tracks could damage as the weather can still be quite warm in March. It would appear that KVE would be trying to undermine Keith's plan of off road driving, etc. at the airport or its vicinity, by approaching Corowa council themselves, AFTER Keith had made similar approaches.

Keith's proposal and Ian's advice should be taken onboard. As I see it, KVE has only 6 members, if they have plans to run any operations at the airport and Ball Park, then they do not have enough manpower in their organisation to undertake this. The event has grown in recent years, all by reputation and tradition, the organising should really be taken from members with long term experience from the three major clubs who participate, AMVCS in NSW, the Victorian club and South Australian club. The Australian Armoured Vehicle Association should also be consulted as their members would have wide experience in handling these vehicles and be a potential source of entries.

If the tank and tracked vehicle owners are to be encouraged to bring their vehicles to the event, they want to have somewhere big enough that they can all be able to exercise them safely and together, and this is what Keith's proposal is all about, any dithering and argueing now, will put these people off and result in potential entrants losing interest, which is quite the opposite of what should be happening. If you capture people's interest right now, then they can have time to prepare their vehicles and save their money, ready for next March.

The two venues can be combined in regards to events during the week so everyone feels they are a part of it, for instance, alternative social events at both sites, for all entrants. As this theme is only for 2008, all operations will then revert to Ball Park in subsequent years. This is an opportunity to involve military vehicle owners of ALL types, next year, don't lose it, accept help and assistance which is given with good intentions.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Thank you both for some very erudite posts on the subject!

*****

Richard, I believe you've covered all the salient points to be made, and more:

-- this is not about defining some mystical and mythical 'jurisdictional' issue;

-- the core of 'Airport '08' as presented by Mr. Adam is that it satisfies all requirements of heavy tracked armour for the 2008 Show;

-- the experts in the handling of such vehicles are ready, able and willing to work with any others to ensure Corowa '08 becomes the biggest and best Corowa ever;

-- Mr. Adam's Airport concept is designed to work in conjunction with, not in competition with the regular Corowa Show.

These are NOT separate events, they are two parts of the Whole. Done together, this will indeed be a truly memorable Year.

Let us bring the [apparent] two camps together to become two unique elements of one unique event.

*****

Ian, your Point # 2 dovetails neatly in with this; if members of the KVE Executive would be willing to sit down at a neutral location - and Corowa itself would seem to be ideal - would you be willing to act as Mediator to the meeting? It would also seem that someone with your skill and experience in the subject matter, and holding the position that you do within the hobby, is just who is called for on such an occasion. Just a thought....

*****

To all interested parties: I am in possession of a well-written situational appreciation comparing the two locations for the purposes in mind, and have been asked to post it verbatim. I shall do so a bit later this morning (EDT).

Geoff

[Ian Pullen]

If both parties are willing to meet, I am more than happy to act as a mediator if all parties are in agreeance.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Ian Pullen
If both parties are willing to meet, I am more than happy to act as a mediator if all parties are in agreeance.

Very well, thank you Mr. Pullen, your offer duly noted.

Mr. Hedges?

Mr. Adam?

Would you and your parties be willing to accede to Mr. Pullen's generous offer to meet at a neutral location, ideally Corowa as per the suggestion, in order to work together to ensure Corowa '08 becomes the event we all think it could be?

I hasten to add that you are welcome to use this Forum as a focal point in arranging such a meeting, if you so wish.

Geoff

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball

Richard, I believe you've covered all the salient points to be made:

-- Mr. Adam's Airport concept is designed to work in conjunction with, not in competition with the regular Corowa Show.

These are NOT separate events, they are two parts of the Whole. Done together, this will indeed be a truly memorable Year.

Let us bring the [apparent] two camps together to become two unique elements of one unique event.

Geoff

A little historical perspective on the Corowa Experience might explain why there seems to be two colliding viewpoints on this matter at hand.

Corowa originally kicked off 27 years ago as a weekend get-together by a few (something like 4?) GPA Amphib Jeep owners from different states as a central point at which to compare vehicles, share expertise, and get the Seeps in the water. In the days before the internet, it was a way to network with others from around Aust with others of a shared interest. It was a sucess, and they agreed to make it an Annual get-together. As time went on other MV owners, both of GPAs and other vehicles, swelled the numbers to make it THE biggest social gathering of MV owners in the Eastern States. Note I didn't call it an Event. Although most of the State-based clubs listed it on their club calendars as a requirement for movement of conditional registered vehicles, the clubs had little involvement in organising anything other than perhaps convoy arrangements to get there. Once there it was pretty much socialising and networking, with anything else more structured being done on the spot in an Ad Hoc manner. With other major events occuring, like the 1995 re-enactment of the convoys to Alice Springs for the 50 year anniversary of WW2, Australia Remembers, more friendships were formed, which continued to swell the number of Corowa attendees.

By 1999, people began to realise that some fairly rare vehicles were congregating here, and that SURELY that had to be a record. As a result, to gain recognition for the Guiness Book of Records for the Most GPAs, some "organising" had to be done. Liasing with Guiness, negotiating with the Ball Park Owners, the Local Council, and registering the GPA Owners details. This was done voluntarily by people who stepped up to the thankless, unpaid task. GOOD ON THEM. For those without a GPA, Corowa remained a great social get-together and a chance to catch up with mates from around Australia and have a spin in the vehicles.

Following the sucessful GPA record attempt, other vehicle owners have thought it would be good to have a crack at other records. The theme years for Blitz, Studebaker, Carriers, Dodge, Armoured Car, Staff Car and Bike have all proven to be popular, with the result that numbers of both attendees and vehicles have grown to unprecedented levels. Each year, the increase in numbers has required more and more organisation and co-ordination.

This is where we start to fray at the seams. Has Corowa grown too much to retain the original flavour of a low-key social gathering where people manage their own activities? Has it now become an Event (with a capital E!) that needs to be choreagraphed from Go to Whoa? If the centre of attractions is somewhere other than the Ball Park Caravan Park, then where exactly is "Corowa" happening? Has Corowa become the Theme, or is it still the socialising with mates by the river?

Geoff, you say that basing the tracked vehicles at the Airport is intended to be complementary to what is going on at the Caravan Park, but by it's very nature it is quite divisive and literally splitting Corowa into "Two Camps". I KNOW that having the Tracked vehicles away from the Caravan Park is just plain common sense and fully understand that people will want to remain camped close to their tracked vehicles, but many people see this as splitting everyone into the "Ballpark crowd" or the "Airport crowd". And people will resent that.

I personally feel that the "Theme years" and Guiness Record attempts, while entertaining to attend, have been detrimental to the flavour of Corowa Week. They are a great idea, but ought to separated from Corowa both geographically and seasonally (Ganmain 08, Year of the Blitz?), or perhaps reduced to every 3 or 4 years. It has grown to a point that it now exceeds the capacity of the venue. Do we pack it all up and move to a new, larger venue, or do we rein it in to keep it much as it always has been?

I respect completely both what Keith Adam AND the KVE Committee (and Ian!) are trying to do and would very much like to see this sorted out.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
.... Has Corowa grown too much to retain the original flavour of a low-key social gathering where people manage their own activities? Has it now become an Event (with a capital E!) that needs to be choreographed from Go to Whoa? If the centre of attractions is somewhere other than the Ball Park Caravan Park, then where exactly is "Corowa" happening? Has Corowa become the Theme, or is it still the socialising with mates by the river?

Geoff, you say that basing the tracked vehicles at the Airport is intended to be complementary to what is going on at the Caravan Park, but by it's very nature it is quite divisive and literally splitting Corowa into "Two Camps". I KNOW that having the Tracked vehicles away from the Caravan Park is just plain common sense and fully understand that people will want to remain camped close to their tracked vehicles, but many people see this as splitting everyone into the "Ballpark crowd" or the "Airport crowd". And people will resent that.

I personally feel that the "Theme years" and Guinness Record attempts, while entertaining to attend, have been detrimental to the flavour of Corowa Week. They are a great idea, but ought to separated from Corowa both geographically and seasonally (Ganmain 08, Year of the Blitz?), or perhaps reduced to every 3 or 4 years. It has grown to a point that it now exceeds the capacity of the venue. Do we pack it all up and move to a new, larger venue, or do we rein it in to keep it much as it always has been?

Thanks Tony, a very thought-provoking post indeed.

Speaking personally, I'm rather partial to the 'theme' aspect of Corowa, acknowledging at the same time that it has both pros and cons - positive because it focuses special interests every year, negative because of its potential to subtly disenfranchise those who don't own or aren't particularly interested in the 'flavour of the year' (or more likely, simply dissuade them from coming at all, although from what I gather that's not the case).

In any event, we could, if you wish, debate this ad infinitum in a separate thread in this Corowa subforum - I for one would be very interested to hear the opinions of other attendees, perhaps those who might otherwise be intimidated by the simmering and distasteful "us vs them" elements in this particular thread. What do you think? If amenable to the idea, would you care to start this, or shall I?

Regards this year, it seems that barring something dramatic, it's going to happen as tentatively planned now, and it truly will be unique. My perspective is that if it's done correctly, there will be a minimum of friction between the two camps - and that can only be determined by the 'players' themselves. There's no question that having two separate camps will result in some spending more time than others in one of the two zones of activity, but I think we can anticipate a fairly steady traffic between the two, all week.

I do know what you're alluding to regards potentially 'diluting' that traditional atmosphere of 'gathering with your mates', and will readily acknowledge that it's a really tough call. Shall I stay here, or shall I stay there? I want to sit down with so-and-so for a few pints, but then I won't be able to drive back and forth, will I? Given I'm camping at one or another of the locations, in which will I spend the majority of my time?

And so on. I can't honestly answer you right now on where even I would spend the greater portion of my time... it's a tough call without actually being there. There will inevitably be people in both camps I'd like to socialise with, and while since I don't drink driving's not a problem, timing and opportunity may well be awkward. Others will inevitably feel the same.

Equally inevitably, though, I also think that Corowa has been a fixture for long enough that these issues will resolve themselves, find their own equilibrium if you will. Am I way off-base here?

All I do know, right here, right now, is that we have what many consider a unique workable concept to explore and execute if feasible. I think this investigation must be resolved through consensus before we can look to the future; if it cannot, so be it - Corowa continues as it has been, and hopefully with all parties present regardless. If it can, Corowa takes a bold and courageous step forward, perhaps one not to be repeated, but then that's another discussion altogether, is it not?

I don't think anyone will argue the point of my last paragraph.

Over to you sir, with thanks.

Geoff/Jif (SUNRAY can be frightfully confused these days )

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

APPRECIATION PROCESS FOR HEAVY ARMOURED VEHICLES FOR COROWA 2008
Compiled and submitted by IAN PULLEN
SERIAL	ITEM	VAN PARK (option ALPHA)	AIRFIELD (option BRAVO)
1.	DAMAGE TO GROUNDS	- Grounds will be damaged. This will be mostly in public areas. - If large scale damage, to Van Park areas, proprietors may discourage future themes. - Damage to River Track could result in accidents with large vehicles. - Owners to repair damage to grounds as they happen.	- Grounds will be damaged. Less public area will be damaged as vehicles will drive on private property. - Less chance of vehicular accidents due to open and controlled driving areas. - Owners to repair damage to grounds as they happen.
2.	CONTROL	- KVE committee can control AFV movement. - Movement control may be intensive. - Greater amount of AFV traffic on public roads increase possibilities of accidents.	- KVE committee can control AFV movement. - Less intensive for greater control with higher amount of movement. - Lesser amount of AFV movement on public roads (should only be street parade) therefore lessens chances of accidents.
3.	PEDESTRIAN TRAFFIC	- Maximum reaction with pedestrian traffic. Crews to be constantly vigilant. - Rear vehicle swing when turning may hit pedestrians.	- More control of pedestrian access resulting in little to no pedestrians around vehicles when moving. - Less chance of rear vehicle swing hitting pedestrians.
4.	STREET PARADE ROUTE	- Requirements for AFV safety during parade to be annexed separately. - Higher amount of travel on public roads. - Will require three controlled phases of road movement. Fourth phase will be uncontrolled movement to return to Van Park when Edward St cleared of parked vehicles. - Escort vehicle required. - Maximum interaction with civilian traffic and increased number of pivot turns.	- Requirements for AFV safety during parade to be annexed separately. - Lesser amount of travel on public roads. - Street parade can be completed in two controlled phases. Phase one - airfield to FUP. Phase two - FUP to airfield. - Escort vehicle required. - Civilian traffic interaction kept to possible minimum with reduced number of pivot turns.
5.	DAILY DRIVING	- Vehicles will be on public roads every day at some stage during meet whilst AFVs are at meet. - AFVs driven at night will greatly increase chances of accidents.	- Vehicles will be on public roads only on day of street parade. - AFVs driven at night will greatly increase chances of accidents.
6.	RETURN ROUTE	- As previously mentioned, requirements will be covered in a separate annex. - Three organised phases for the street parade with a fourth phase being move under individual control to Van Park when possible.	- Return route will be actual street parade.
7.	COORDINATION	- KVE committee to control all aspects of AFV movement. - Due to physical properties of location a high degree of coordination is required on daily basis.	- KVE committee to control all aspects of AFV movement. - Due to physical properties of location, a lesser degree of co-ordination is required on daily basis.
8.	ATTENDANCE	- Expected minimum attendance of AFV owners and vehicles due to safety concerns and limited opportunities to drive vehicles.	- Expected greater attendance of owners and vehicles due to more driving opportunities in a safer environment.
9.	SWAP MEET	- AFV owners will require securing vehicles under individual arrangements to attend swap meet at FUP. - AFVs will require moving back to personal camp sites once Edward St is cleared. - AFVs will be in a close location for visitors to take photos. - Entrants will hurry back to swap meet at park.	- AFV owners will require securing vehicles under individual arrangements at personal camp sites. - Entrants can attend Swap Meet In personal vehicles. - Swap meet if held at airfield will keep entrants together and avoid traffic congestion in town.
10.	LOCATION	- Split locations may cause dissemination amongst entrants. - Split locations may result in entrants unable to see various attractions. - KVE can control ALL vehicle movement. - Decreased safety. - Minimum driving opportunities. - Increased use of AFVs on road. - No possibility of on location organised AFV rally.	- Split locations will ease burden on facilities at Van Park. - Split locations will result in a greater variety and number of activities to be organised. - KVE can control ALL vehicle movement. - Increased safety. - Maximum driving opportunities. - Minimal AFV use of roads. - Good opportunity of organised on location AFV rally.
11.	FACILITIES	- Maximum use of Van Park facilities. - Use of Van Park unit / onsite accommodation. - Close proximity of vehicles and tentage to AFVs when moving. - Increased use of vehicle guides. - Cramped accommodation near vehicles. - Close proximity to loading ramp.	- Shower / toilet facilities at Airfield. - Accommodation would be by tentage. - AFVs have a greater freedom of movement due to greater spacing of accommodation sites. - Decreased requirement for guides. - Close proximity to loading ramp.
12.	SAFETY	- Greater opportunities for accidents to occur. - Safety concerns of pedestrian traffic close to moving vehicles.	- Reduced opportunities for accidents to occur. - Greater chance to cordon pedestrian traffic away from moving vehicles.
1. Option ALPHA details the considerations both for and against to base the AFVs at the Van Park where as Option BRAVO details the same for basing the AFVs at the Airfield. 2. Due to the additional positive considerations for Option BRAVO, it is recommended that this option be accepted.

[dougiebarder]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
There will inevitably be people in both camps I'd like to socialise with, and while since I don't drink driving's not a problem,

Could it be the year of tracked armour, and Sunrays mini bus then?

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by dougiebarder
Could it be the year of tracked armour, and Sunrays mini bus then?

SSSHHHHH!!! Affirmative, at $20 per head per ride! Guaranteed to buy my aeroplane ticket several times over!

[phoenix]

Whilst I understand that the committee of KVE don't regularly access the MLU forum, and a lot has been said since they last accessed it, I wanted to add my small say without adding too much to the fire.

Reading the proposal, and Ian's comments, a lot of very valid things have been said, many of which the committee has considered. However I can see a couple of issues.

I read john's post in conjunction with the proposal. John said that the committee doesn't condone an event outside their control, and unless i've read it wrong (which may be the case, and i'm welcome to be corrected), the proposal read more as an extra or parallel event, rather than a suggestion as to how and where the tracked vehicles could be accommodated and allowed for.

However by john's post, KVE is also looking at some similar alternatives as it is. Ideally we could have a padock for the tracked vehicles to play in (perhaps with a short course of lumps, bumps and humps al la beltring). I know that i'm a relative newbie having only attended Corowa in 2007, however i may be attending to help crew a tracked vehicle in 2008, so I do have an interest in what is going on.

Perhaps before we all get too wound up we allow john to reply with some more detail and replies to what has been discussed thus far?? nobody denies that it is a complicated issue to overcome, but arguing before we have more feedback from KVE, which was formed to organise the event, isn't going to benefit anybody.

[Tony Smith]

In the Interlude, some Light relief.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
In the Interlude, some Light relief.

LMAO!! Gotta give it to the Poms some days - reckon that being couped up on that tiny little waterlogged island (waiting for the next little corporal to give it a go) gives them a unique perspective!

[Lynn Eades]

Do you need bigger balls?

[Ozzie John & Fiona]

This is not intended to be a long winded reply but may well be, due to the issues raised on MLU.

Congratulations Richard Green, you appear to be the only person to take the time to study all that has been written on the subject of tracked vehicles at Corowa 08, by people in the know, that being Khaki Vehicle Enthusiasts Incorporated (KVE Inc).

As a reminder, KVE Inc was set up as a result of a meeting I called in 2005. This meeting set the ground rules to form a committee to run this event with all the necessary insurance to protect the organisers from been sued personally if somebody got hurt. There have been people hurt in the past, but we are lucky that they have not seen fit to seek compensation for their injuries.

In this day and age of litigation, we can not be too careful. I do not want to lose my house through no fault of mine.

Two serious accidents that come to mind quickly at past events are a Bren Gun carrier that nearly rolled over losing a track as a result, with people on board. The other was a GPA that sank in the river, again with people on board. This is why KVE Inc was set up, to protect the organisers from litigation.

Yes, Keith Adam’s proposal is a stand alone event, not including KVE Inc in the management. This again brings potential insurance issues if it is not done correctly. We are not prepared to take the risk.

Yes, Corowa Council, through the Mayor Gary Poidevin, has reached an agreement with KVE Inc President John Hedges, for the use of the entire airport to facilitate all needs that may arise in regard large tracked vehicles staying at the airport, including camping at the airport. In addition to the airport, we are also making final arrangements for the use of 2 paddocks near the airport as playgrounds for tracked vehicles.

The Mayor of Corowa has said that Council do not want a larger than necessary group staying at the airport, but are happy for the larger vehicles that would have difficulty getting into the Caravan Park staying at the airport. The council also, will not allow a swap meet at the airport. They are mindful that Ball Park Caravan Park is the hub of the event and do not what to detract from that.

Initially, Ian Pullen from Bandiana intended that their vehicles would not be staying over night at Corowa due to security reasons. They now may be able to arrive as early as Wednesday, or as late as Friday, if not Saturday only still. We will have to address the situation prior to their arrival and allow for contingencies. As for others bringing very large vehicles that may not fit into Ball Park, we have no other entries at this time, although others are talking about it. This adds to our difficulties, making it hard to plan for the unforeseen. Since John Arnott resigned we have no voice from AAVA on our committee, again adding to our problems.

If anyone is intending to bring large tracked vehicles, PLEASE register ASAP, so we are aware and can cater for your needs, whatever they may be.

Remember the Six P’s. Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance, so help us to help you, remember we are only lovers of restored military vehicles, as you all are, trying to do our best for the event so everybody has a good time. Those committee members that own military vehicles and wish to find some time to enjoy their vehicles at Corowa, are often spending more time organising and running the event, instead of what Corowa is all about, catching up with old friends and enjoying our vehicles. For this reason, the present make up of the committee will not last forever, others will have the chance to take over.

The Executive Committee of KVE Inc. will be encouraging people to join the association, with the view of taking part in helping to organise this event in the future. With this in mind as a result of John Arnott resigning, there is a vacancy on the executive committee. This was offered to Ian Pullen, having regard to all the expert advice and help he has been and is giving us. Ian has declined the offer at this time, but is still helping with the event in no small way with safety guidelines and street drive. KVE Inc appreciates this input from Ian. All the information on the MLU thread and additional information from Ian, has been gratefully received by KVE Inc. As stated before, Ian and myself, as well as Colin & Carol are to meet at Corowa in the next 5 weeks to further the arrangements for Corowa 2008.

Remember we are a small voluntary committee trying to run an event that is growing larger every year both in vehicles and people. We all have a life outside KVE Inc, but it is starting to take up much more of our time and that time is family time.

In summing up, let’s all pull together for the betterment of “Corowa” and help us to help you.
I’m available by phone of an evening on 02 62262281 except for Monday and Tuesday nights as I have other commitments on those nights, to answer any questions or to take offers of assistance.

I do not wish to continue debating this matter regularly on this forum. As new info comes to hand, I will post it. I have a lovely lady in my life, and we will be getting married in February next year. This means we have a wedding to organise as well as Corowa. Fiona is a big help to me with KVE Inc behind the scene as well as the minute secretary at our meetings, leaving Jan freer to have input into the meeting without having to worry about taking minutes.


Regards
John Hedges
President KVE Inc

Ps
I only look at the MLU site once a week or so as time allows.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Please forgive me for not answering you earlier; it's been a bloody long day.

Thank you for your input and perspective here, John. I'm especially happy to hear that you're going to be sitting down with Ian at Corowa shortly.

I do have one question for you, though, at least at this time. Your statement:

Congratulations Richard Green, you appear to be the only person to take the time to study all that has been written on the subject of tracked vehicles at Corowa 08, by people in the know, that being Khaki Vehicle Enthusiasts Incorporated (KVE Inc).

.... seems a trifling demeaning to all those who've given this some thought based upon their own past experience in such matters. It in fact suggests that no one except Richard has any idea what he's talking about, including Ian himself.

Furthermore, it seems in direct contradiction to your later statement:

KVE Inc appreciates this input from Ian. All the information on the MLU thread and additional information from Ian, has been gratefully received by KVE Inc.

.... which seems to instead acknowledge and accept their various opinions as legitimate.

A small thing I know, but would you care to clarify, please? I'm sure everyone would like to put this distasteful business behind us and just get on with things.

Thanks again,

Geoff


PS: Oh yes, just one more small point, then I really must be off. It seems from your statement:

I do not wish to continue debating this matter regularly on this forum...... I only look at the MLU site once a week or so as time allows.

.... that you have in fact chosen to disregard the simple truth that many of the individuals you purport to represent have long adopted Maple Leaf Up as their communications vehicle of choice. I, as the creator and owner of MLU and their webmaster to-boot, am of course delighted to offer these services to any with interest in related fields, and they are in turn free to use these services to discuss any issues related to their hobby.

This, of course, is the whole point behind having a forum to begin with.

My point is that they will continue to debate any matter of concern to them, as often as they wish, with my blessing; whether or not you choose to follow those debates as they evolve, or participate in even just the ones which may concern you, is your business. My business is providing my membership with just such an open platform, and I will continue to encourage them to use it as they will. If you happen to miss something because you choose to ignore this interaction, I'm afraid I can't help you.

Oh, and John? It must have slipped your mind, but you are on the Forum far more than 'once a week or so'. As a service to our membership, I have a world-wide network of staff who monitor Login IDs and IP addresses pretty much 24/7, due to seemingly never-ending attempts by hackers and spammers to gain access and promulgate their filth. We know who's on and when they're on, at any given time.

GWB

[phoenix]

Organising a wedding and Corowa at the same time, you are going to be mighty busy John

[Sydneymver]

I have attended about 7 Corowa events including Keiths one about 10 years ago.
I know many people who attend, and as i'm booked in at Ball park, i have no problem driving in my jeep around the town ship to catch up with everyone (i will still have my push bike BMX with beers in the basket).

See you all on site.

Bruce McCann

[Douglas Greville]

Geoff

A certain Kettenkrad driving mutual friend of ours has a saying
"when you have 2 Germans you have a club, when you have
3 Germans you have 2 clubs". Hopefully all involved with Corowa
will get along together and the above will not be the case. ;-)

From the prespective of someone who stayed at a motel for last
year's Corowa (and I wasn't the only one), I don't see why the fuss over which "group" you are aligned with. At Beltring, you
camped: Andreas, Regina, Fran and I stayed at a B&B 1/2 hour
away. I don't think that alienated us? Any of us who have been
to Beltring know that at a large event you circulate amongst what
interests you. Thus one day was arena (tanks) another day the
stalls and so on, if anything, that enhanced the experience not
detracted from it. Whilst at the same time you were hanging around the Blitz crowd and a certain Bren Carrier. Due to the size of Beltring you could have easily been at a seperate event to us, yet we all had a great time AND still socialized together.

Corowa, like Beltring, is growing. I would not like it to fall into the
same traps that has Beltring with the commercialisation, over crowding and 'monster by the tail' issues. Having seen Ball Park
and as an armour owner, I think that if multiple tracked AFVs are attending the event, then the airport is the only sensible place for them, either that, or they have to be static - which defeats
the whole purpose.

Richard Farrant and Geoff - if you do decide to go to Corowa
2008, please email me a couple of weeks beforehand so we
can make arrangements to catch up with each other.

Regards
Doug
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/lsm/dhmg/index.html

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

I could kick m'self in the arse for not having contacted you earlier, myself! My bad.

Thanks for your common-sense approach - in retrospect, and especially given your own sphere of interest, I expected nothing less from you. I agree with you about Beltring for all intents and purposes, on both counts actually; first, having slept on-site one visit and stayed at a B&B a half-hour away the next, the only difference I found was not waking up hung-over with a bunch of other, equally hung-over gibbering idiots. Well, that and parking, if you didn't arrive early enough - it's neither here nor there though, and certainly a moot point now.

We can get into their crass commercialisation etc in another conversation, but in a nutshell, that was Beltring's big mistake, at least as viewed by many friends of ours. I tend to concur. Corowa has a long way to go until they reach that scope of operations - and perhaps they don't want to, an organisational nightmare I would think - but within the confines of the Ball Park, and that judged against the current size of the show, the proportions are slowly getting there, and it's good to be able to 'think outside the box' well in advance. Again, though, we're treading into the sphere of a wholly separate topic here, but I will say that I have every confidence, now knowing some of the players as I do, that this gorge can be spanned.

Re Corowa '08, I have every intention of joining your mob down there next year! We shall indeed keep in closer touch in the interim.



Jif

[Douglas Greville]

Geoff

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
[B]I could kick m'self in the arse for not having contacted you earlier, myself! My bad. )

Mate, for the last 3 or more years I have sent the odd email to you, knowing that the address was valid, but never getting a reply. Came to the conclusion you were either too busy, your spam filter was culling me out, you were ignoring me etc. But
I can be a persistent sod when I want to......

Thanks for your common-sense approach - in retrospect, and especially given your own sphere of interest, I expected nothing less from you.

Gee, flattery will get you a long way...........
The Corowa topic is a bit of a mine field and I don't know the whole story, so have no desire to take sides as it were. What I will comment on and it is a tangent, but nether the less relevant: there was once an annual VW meet in England. It's very success was it's nemesis. It became a monster and ceased to exist, never to be replaced, much to the regret of the VW community. Beltring went a different way, a committee that couldn't cope handing off to commercialism. At least Beltring, despite its faults still exists. At the end of the day, those of KVE appear to be fast facing the prospect of their own tiger-by-the-tail. I note there is a "club" and
also a seperate "committee" - de ja vu Beltring!
To keep it as a casual "meet", or to become an "event" with all that involves? At the moment they seem to have a foot in each, I doubt that will continue for much longer.

You may not be aware that Oz is seeing a sharp decline in community/charity/fraternal gatherings, this usually boils down to
2 reasons.
A) Cost due to insurance and compliance (a deluge of laws at every level of government)
and
B) The snowballing amount of time needed due to the above and the inability of people to allocate that time from the pressures of modern life.

Which is why I have suddenly taken an interest in the latest
rumblings out of Corowa, for it appears to now be at that
point where others have stumbled - Beltring and the VW mob
to name 2, AND the 2 reasons listed above.

-snip-
conversation, but in a nutshell, that was Beltring's big mistake, at least as viewed by many friends of ours. I tend to concur.

True, but at least it survived, it is however a good case study and
the lessons are there to be learned or ignored.

Corowa has a long way to go until they reach that scope of operations - and perhaps they don't want to, an organisational nightmare I would think - but within the confines of the Ball Park, and that judged against the current size of the show, the proportions are slowly getting there, and it's good to be able to 'think outside the box' well in advance. Again, though, we're treading into the sphere of a wholly separate topic here, but I will say that I have every confidence, now knowing some of the players as I do, that this gorge can be spanned.

Earlier I did a quick "Google Earth" of Ball Park and surrounds. It
does not lend itself to growth, an arena, or tracked vehicle play
area. I think there are going to have to be some hard decisions
made, hopefully they will be wise ones..........

I have had more than my fill of club politics where I live, so don't
wish to be embroiled in MV ones. They are nearly always devisive
and thus the subject hobby suffers.

Re Corowa '08, I have every intention of joining your mob down there next year! We shall indeed keep in closer touch in the interim.

I see you have been paying attention in your travels: I have met
Canadians who get very twitchy at the Aussie use of the term "mob"! :-)

Oh, do make sure you bring a real hat, Corowa in summer can
be a tad sunny and you know what that does to you northern
types - I have the picture to prove it. ;-)

Regards
Doug

[Ian Pullen]

Doug, I will give you a ring tomorrow ref the Ferret Hull.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Doug, will this do as a hat? Received last year as an honoured gift, worn daily since (sure wakes up the Canucks over here!)...

Corowa, March 2007:

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

...and just three weeks ago, here:

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Douglas Greville
Mate, for the last 3 or more years I have sent the odd email to you, knowing that the address was valid, but never getting a reply.......

Oh don't whinge, you're old enough to cry! You HAVE gotten some replies, but I'll use the spam thing as a good excuse on others... I DO get at least a 150 of the buggers a day now. They scooped 'sunray' off the website and I'm screwed...

Gee, flattery will get you a long way...........

Why do you think I employ it so skilfully?

The Corowa topic is a bit of a mine field and I don't know the whole story, so have no desire to take sides as it were. What I will comment on and it is a tangent, but nether the less relevant: there was once an annual VW meet in England. It's very success was it's nemesis. It became a monster and ceased to exist, never to be replaced, much to the regret of the VW community. Beltring went a different way, a committee that couldn't cope handing off to commercialism. At least Beltring, despite its faults still exists. At the end of the day, those of KVE appear to be fast facing the prospect of their own tiger-by-the-tail. I note there is a "club" and
also a seperate "committee" - de ja vu Beltring!
To keep it as a casual "meet", or to become an "event" with all that involves? At the moment they seem to have a foot in each, I doubt that will continue for much longer.

I'm not going to tread in that minefield either, except to say that in my experience, the acronym K.I.S.S. seems to apply in almost all cases. Hell, if it can work in the army...

You may not be aware that Oz is seeing a sharp decline in community/charity/fraternal gatherings, this usually boils down to 2 reasons.
A) Cost due to insurance and compliance (a deluge of laws at every level of government)
and
B) The snowballing amount of time needed due to the above and the inability of people to allocate that time from the pressures of modern life.

I know only too well, especially the latter - if I could afford to, even just the web work I do could easily be a full-time job! It seems I'm working seven days a week now, at two jobs - the one that pays me, and the one that costs me. Yes, I'm a glutton for punishment...

And don't get me started on Government as a whole!

True, but at least it survived, it is however a good case study and the lessons are there to be learned or ignored.

Methinks Beltring survives only because of the people and in spite of its self-styled bureaucracy. Yes indeed, many lessons to be learned from that...

I see you have been paying attention in your travels: I have met Canadians who get very twitchy at the Aussie use of the term "mob"! :-)

I must confess to being frightfully confused these days... given all that's passed over the years, it seems I must claim to having become part Canuck, part Yank, part Scots git, part Pommie twit, part Aussie, part... I could go on and on, except that the mixed metaphors now confuse even me, and I'm the one speaking them! And this is stone-cold sober...

Oh, do make sure you bring a real hat, Corowa in summer can be a tad sunny and you know what that does to you northern types - I have the picture to prove it. ;-)

I think we've already covered that, except the alleged pic... you know what you can do with THAT, but because there are ladies on the Forum I shan't elaborate on the scatological details!

[Douglas Greville]

Geoff

others... I DO get at least a 150 of the buggers a day now. They scooped 'sunray' off the website and I'm screwed...

Yeah, they mined my email address too, but about 6 months ago my ISP put in a spam filter and I must say it is very effective. I have yet to hear of it filtering out any genuine emails!

I'm not going to tread in that minefield either, except to say that in my experience, the acronym K.I.S.S. seems to apply in almost all cases. Hell, if it can work in the army...

Back to topic:
Lets pursue the Beltring example further and do a bit of crystal ball gazing.
If Corowa/KVE are having growing pains over the need to accomodate armour (a fundamental if niche part of the military vehicle hobby), then they are going to have a pink fit when the re-enactors start swamping them.
Beltring will welcome with open arms anyone who pays at the gate: but what will happen at Corowa when the re-enactors start showing up in increasing numbers and want to stage scenes from the Norman conquest of Britain through to Iraq 2007? I hear the US War of Independance is quite popular with the Aussie re-enactors at the moment!
Never happen.........?

As people fall out of the MV hobby their vehicles come up for sale, re-enactors are increasingly buying MVs as accessories to their hobby, the vehicle is the accessory NOT the focus of their hobby.

A quick look at the US and British scene will show that the MV hobby is pretty static numbers wise, but re-enactment is all
the rage!
The shape of things to come in Oz? Our society usually follows
what occurs in America and Britain/Europe.......

Methinks Beltring survives only because of the people and in spite of its self-styled bureaucracy. Yes indeed, many lessons to be learned from that...

Its survival is as you state, but also due to the ideal location, amount of land, amenities (snicker), easy access (that train station at Paddock Wood) and so it goes on.

Interesting times.

Regards
Doug

[Ian Pullen]

I hope the re-enactment craze doesn't include the Roman Legions. Although I do have a few photos of me in a toga but that was alcohol induced (aparently).......and I was a bit younger then too. Not a good look for Corowa.