Artillery Headdress

[Jon Skagfeld]

Just finished watching a CLT production, Truth, Duty, Honour about Artillery on the battlefield.

Featured Arty instructors from Gagetown narrating Arty's current role.

I did a double take when I saw at least 3 Officers in CADPAT wearing the Battledress -era Barathea Forage Cap with red surround and anodized Arty hat badge.

Quoi?

Is this some new retro trend within the CF?

[Dan Sicotte]

It seems, that the Artillery school in Gagetown wear the forge caps.
What's next, the Armour school going to wear the brass helmet? Is the airforce is going back to the 1000 miler envelope?
Dan

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
I did a double take when I saw at least 3 Officers in CADPAT wearing the Battledress -era Barathea Forage Cap with red surround and anodized Arty hat badge.

Hi Jon;

If I'm not mistaken, the Forage Cap denotes the wearer as being a Master Gunner.

Cheers

[RHClarke]

Those of us who served at the various Artillery Schools and were qualifed Instructor In Gunnery (officers) or Assistant Instructor In Gunnery (Sgts-MWO) wore the forage cap. Qualification came by means of the IG or AIG course (year long everything artillery intensive courses).

IGs wear the British Army brown forage cap with a red band above the visor, with a bronze artillery badge. The AIGs wear the CF forage hat with a white covering, red band and brass artillery badge.

Some commandants (obviously not IGs and therefore slow of mind) restricted the use of the IG/AIG hat to field duties only. Other more educated and enlightened Commandants insisted upon its wear whenever instructional duty called.

So, it is a long-standing tradition in the Artillery world that should live on.

Master Gunners are another beast altogether (although a lot of AIGs went on to become Master Gunners).

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Bloody hell, Jon, NOW look what you've started!!

[RHClarke]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Bloody hell, Jon, NOW look what you've started!!

Wanna talk about the Artillery sword and the hidden sword belt?

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by RHClarke
Wanna talk about the Artillery sword and the hidden sword belt?

You might as well, you're going to anyway!

Besides, having now been declared an Honourary Gunner (at least as soon as I learn to tie my own shoes), I'm probably going to have to learn this stuff anyway... ( what have I DONE??)

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by RHClarke
Those of us who served at the various Artillery Schools and were qualifed Instructor In Gunnery (officers) or Assistant Instructor In Gunnery (Sgts-MWO) wore the forage cap. Qualification came by means of the IG or AIG course (year long everything artillery intensive courses).

IGs wear the British Army brown forage cap with a red band above the visor, with a bronze artillery badge. The AIGs wear the CF forage hat with a white covering, red band and brass artillery badge.

Some commandants (obviously not IGs and therefore slow of mind) restricted the use of the IG/AIG hat to field duties only. Other more educated and enlightened Commandants insisted upon its wear whenever instructional duty called.

So, it is a long-standing tradition in the Artillery world that should live on.

Master Gunners are another beast altogether (although a lot of AIGs went on to become Master Gunners).

[Jon Skagfeld]

Matter of fact, toward the end of the program, there was one guy (now identifiable as an AIG) with a white cover which at the time I took to be a rain cover.

My, my...what a wealth of knowledge is contained in the minds of MLU members!

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Jon Skagfeld
My, my...what a wealth of knowledge is contained in the minds of MLU members!

Well, SOME of us, anyway...

[Herb Danter (RIP)]

Hello Jon:
I find any discussions relating to artillery matters very stimulating.
I am a WW II veteran of the RCA having served the 25 pdr's mounted on the Ram tanks and known as Sextons.
We were close artillery support for the infantry and armoured units of the 4th Canadian Armoured Division (Normandy to Germany)
I was "fined tuned" in arty gunnery at the Royal School of Artillery in Larkhill England and subsequently educated by the "Gospel According To Larkhill)"
So you see Jon, I find these discussions of great interest.
Our Regiment (23rd Field Regiment) was converted to RCHA for nearly a year before we reverted back to RCA. During this interval we had to wear the red & blue forage caps and we sure got "whistled at" when we wore them to town. I thought these caps had vanished with the old style British Uniforms which I still think are tops.
FYI Jon: the current Master Gunner Of St.James Park is
General Sir Alex Harley KBE CB and I understand that as long as we are part of the Royal Regiment of Artillery he is also our Master Gunner of the Royal Regiment Of Canadian Artillery
UBIQUE
Herb Danter
co-Chair & Secretary/treasurer
Limber Gunners Association
c/o 7th Toronto Regiment RCA

[RHClarke]

Originally posted by Herb Danter
...FYI Jon: the current Master Gunner Of St.James Park is
General Sir Alex Harley KBE CB and I understand that as long as we are part of the Royal Regiment of Artillery he is also our Master Gunner of the Royal Regiment Of Canadian Artillery
UBIQUE
Herb Danter
co-Chair & Secretary/treasurer
Limber Gunners Association
c/o 7th Toronto Regiment RCA

Another Artillery anomaly. There is, as was very well described by Mr. Danter, The Master Gunner of St. James Park. But there are also many fine gentlemen wearing Artillery and Armoured cap badges who are granted the title of Master Gunner as well. The distinction between the two: one is a very well respected honourary appointment, the other a hard earned Canadian military qualification.

We tend to be different and distinct in our traditions than the "others", i.e. The Artillery are the only army organization that has a Captain General.

I wonder if Gunner will be posting soon? Mike?

[Herb Danter (RIP)]

Thank you R H:
For correcting me on this subject.
Herb

[RHClarke]

Originally posted by Herb Danter
Thank you R H:
For correcting me on this subject.
Herb

Herb,

It was more of an addendum, not really a correction. Please keep on posting as there are a lot of us who want to know more about things artillery - particularly wartime artillery.

Rob

[Gunner]

Up to my ears in "going to Kenya in two days and need five days to get everything done" drills so I'll keep this short;

The red band was worn by all staff officers during the first big bang as were gorget patches... by the time the second big bang came along only Colonels and up wore the gorget patch and the red band EXCEPT for artillery staff officers.

The original qualification for Instructor-in-Gunnery (a title as opposed to a qualification) was gunnery staff officer, often called the long staff course and many other nicknames. To this day in the UK the Locating IG course is called the "long locating course" as opposed to the short locating course used to qualify survey officers and such.

Regimental Standing Orders from the 1950's confirmed the long standing tradition in that IGs on instructional duty. no matter where, wore the red band to distinguish them from the hoi poloi and, artillery safety officers wore a yellow band (easily available in the stores as the cavalry wore them on dress hats) so they too could be easily spotted... all tied to keeping the bangy stuff from hitting the friendly (and squishy) people. AIGs, the NCOs who work with the IGs, wore the dress forage cap (blue with red band) with a white rain cover so they could be easily spotted as well. As stocks of the red/blue forage cap dried up, the CF cap replaced it with the addition of the red band and the rain cover.

When the MP branch adopted the old light infantry red beret, the sailor MPs put a red band around their white sailor forage caps... the Provost Marshal of Gagetown then went to the Base Commander demanding that the AIGs cease and desist impersonating MPs. The Base Commander politely pointed out that the AIGs had been wearing said headdress long before the MP branch was born and the MPs should be proud that the Gunners were allowing them to dress up as highly qualified NCOs who had passed an incredibly difficult series of exams resulting from a year long course in the study of applied violence!

Officer Cadets in training at the artillery school refer to the rapid gathering of AIGs to a error on the gun line as a "blizzard"

Gotta go get another jab!

Mike

[RHClarke]

Originally posted by Gunner
Up to my ears in "going to Kenya in two days and need five days to get everything done" drills so I'll keep this short;

The red band was worn by all staff officers during the first big bang as were gorget patches... by the time the second big bang came along only Colonels and up wore the gorget patch and the red band EXCEPT for artillery staff officers.

The original qualification for Instructor-in-Gunnery (a title as opposed to a qualification) was gunnery staff officer, often called the long staff course and many other nicknames. To this day in the UK the Locating IG course is called the "long locating course" as opposed to the short locating course used to qualify survey officers and such.

Regimental Standing Orders from the 1950's confirmed the long standing tradition in that IGs on instructional duty. no matter where, wore the red band to distinguish them from the hoi poloi and, artillery safety officers wore a yellow band (easily available in the stores as the cavalry wore them on dress hats) so they too could be easily spotted... all tied to keeping the bangy stuff from hitting the friendly (and squishy) people. AIGs, the NCOs who work with the IGs, wore the dress forage cap (blue with red band) with a white rain cover so they could be easily spotted as well. As stocks of the red/blue forage cap dried up, the CF cap replaced it with the addition of the red band and the rain cover.

When the MP branch adopted the old light infantry red beret, the sailor MPs put a red band around their white sailor forage caps... the Provost Marshal of Gagetown then went to the Base Commander demanding that the AIGs cease and desist impersonating MPs. The Base Commander politely pointed out that the AIGs had been wearing said headdress long before the MP branch was born and the MPs should be proud that the Gunners were allowing them to dress up as highly qualified NCOs who had passed an incredibly difficult series of exams resulting from a year long course in the study of applied violence!

Officer Cadets in training at the artillery school refer to the rapid gathering of AIGs to a error on the gun line as a "blizzard"

Gotta go get another jab!

Mike

Well done, Mike. Glad you kept it short..."Fire Plan Hoof Hearted, fetch officer, over...

[Jon Skagfeld]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Herb Danter
Hello Jon:
I find any discussions relating to artillery matters very stimulating.
I am a WW II veteran of the RCA having served the 25 pdr's mounted on the Ram tanks and known as Sextons.
We were close artillery support for the infantry and armoured units of the 4th Canadian Armoured Division (Normandy to Germany)
I was "fined tuned" in arty gunnery at the Royal School of Artillery in Larkhill England and subsequently educated by the "Gospel According To Larkhill)"
So you see Jon, I find these discussions of great interest.
Our Regiment (23rd Field Regiment) was converted to RCHA for nearly a year before we reverted back to RCA. During this interval we had to wear the red & blue forage caps and we sure got "whistled at" when we wore them to town. I thought these caps had vanished with the old style British Uniforms which I still think are tops.
FYI Jon: the current Master Gunner Of St.James Park is
General Sir Alex Harley KBE CB and I understand that as long as we are part of the Royal Regiment of Artillery he is also our Master Gunner of the Royal Regiment Of Canadian Artillery
UBIQUE
Herb Danter
co-Chair & Secretary/treasurer
Limber Gunners Association
c/o 7th Toronto Regiment RCA [/QUOTE

Herb:

Thanks for your input to my original query about the TV show.

You are well known (by reputation, if not by personal contact) to many lurkers of this and other forums.

I believe I met you about 6-7-8 years ago, at an Oshawa OMVA show when the 25 pdr, limber and tower were arrayed just before the entrance way.

Question: How prevalent was the use of Slidex during Arty ops?

Would this form of info concealment have been more used at the FOO level, or would operational immediate response have precluded the use of any secure means of communication?

How about at Bty/ Regt level? For example, would a Regimental (Mike, I think) shoot use Slidex?

Curious.

Regards

[Jon Skagfeld]

So, RH Clarke...what's the story with the Arty sword?

Backup Balaclava Defensive Device...or what?

[Herb Danter (RIP)]

O.K. Rob:
Will do! and again, Many thanks for your addendum
Cheers & Regard
Herb.