WD / Census Number tags

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

3. As regards Bedfords I can attest from photo evidence that Luton delivered in 1940-41 vehicles with WD census Numbers that had been painted on the line. This was after trade plates were no longer required for delivery.

David,

I think things may have changed regarding Bedfords in particular after 1941-ish. Looking a original record cards for that make from around 1942-3 onward, census numbers did not run in any kind of order to chassis numbers. My guess is that any requiring fault rectification or any other hold ups did not arrive at VRD until later hence discrepencies.

[rewdco]

Chris,
Don't know if this can help: I have been wondering for quite a long time what the "data tag" next to the girder forks of this motorcycle was for. Unfortunately, I can't read the exact text on it, but it looks like a number to me... Could it be the same kind of tag you were talking about? Please note: this bike has no census number painted on the petrol tank...???
Cheers,
Jan

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by rewdco

Chris,
Please note: this bike has no census number painted on the petrol tank...???

Jan,

The registration number, GXU... is one of a batch used by Civil Defence and similar organisations. The photo caption say " volunteer DR", they could have been for the National Fire Service perhaps?

[rewdco]

Richard, David,

You're reading my mind... Indeed, I was also pretty sure that this bike was used by the NFS or a similar organisation. But census numbers were issued for each and every WD/CO that left the factory during the war...???

Could it be that these motorcycles originally had a census number, but when they were taken over by the NFS, this number was omitted?

Cheers,
Jan

[Rich Payne]

I have seen reference to the Canadian Forces in the U.K. receiving block issues of tags and seals displaying census numbers for fitment as Chris says to the steering columns and the fork parts on motorcycles as a form of permanent identification. These were issued in blocks alongside the WD Census numbers that were block- allocated to Canadian-owned vehicles.

This seems perhaps sensible in a situation where the temptation to 'acquire' a replacement vehicle from whatever source if the original became damaged or lost would have been considerable.

It would seem logical that the seal was removed and returned for cancellation when the vehicle was officially struck off charge.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Richard, thanks for that. I don't know if anyone knew or knows of Tony Beadle, formerly of American Car World, Triumph World, Porsche World? His father worked for the Ministry of Supply from 1940 and was based I think at the AEC works in Southall. He covered the Vauxhall boxing plant cum repair works in Hendon, and various other west London contractors. It seems that the M of S inspected vehicles supplied under Contracts or Demands, and I can imagine that if a vehicle was not accepted by the Inspector after driven off the line, it was not taken into stock and thus allocated a number. Up until 1941 this may not have occurred simply because the demand was so great....delivery was all-important and rectification could be done later. After that there was a luxury of being able to get rectification work done in the factory before delivery. I can also imagine that the VRDs were swamped in practice by defects and this led to the call for remedial work to be carried out at source.

Going back to spring-autumn 1940, the Southampton CMD was regrettably not immune from the delivery of defective vehicles, and apart from vehicles delivered to Bordon being sent back for rectification work, major problems were experienced with axles that required input from the RCOC in Aldershot to sort out. The return of vehicles from the RCOC depot meant that they were subject to the Luftwaffe's blitz on Southampton 30 Nov/1 Dec and thus lost. The Salvage unit at Bordon then came into its own...which is another story!

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Jan, that motorcycle has a London County Council civilian registration, dating it seems to late war (GXU started August 1943 and ran in theory to November 1946). Other m/cs that had civilian registrations included the St John Ambulance and Red Cross, and Auxiliary / National Fire Service. I wondered if the number you mentioned was a stock number for the frame?

Note also the Road Fund Licence holder with no visible, so far as I can see, tax disc. It may have been exempt as being on His Majesty's Service under the Defence of the Realm Regulations. Fire, Police and Ambulance vehicles were also 'exempt' (actually as now I think they had to be taxed but had a 'nil' charge) but for different reasons as they were emergency vehicles. Or it was required to be taxed but at the nil rate and removing the disc eliminated any dating of the photo.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I think this machoine is being assembled for the Civil Defence. It is in the batch of shots of a Civil Defence solo and sidecar-combo school.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This was a CD DR training school. Note the nice line-up of machines!

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

This was a CD DR training school. Note the nice line-up of machines!

David,

Most of those machines have Royal Navy serials on them

[ted angus]

Certainly looks at least 3 are RN

Regarding GXU : My understanding is GXU was reserved for vehicles purchased via the Office of Works for the Home Office (Min of Home Security) I have the following of the GXU block as Royal Enfield 350cc for the NFS. GXU 112 - 169 ; 307 - 333 ; 765 - 868 ;
NFS vehicles were finished to BS 381 tint 32 Dk Ad grey. In some photos they look very light this is to do with the type of B&W film employed.
In the WW2 emergency servies set up the NFS was the major user of DRs, columns of vehicles moving hundreds of miles with numerous DRs in attendance.
TED

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Jan, War Department Census Numbers were allocated to vehicles that were purchased, requisitioned, gifted to, or whatever and acquired by the Ministry of Supply for the War Office & Air Ministry, and by the Admiralty for the Royal Navy & Royal Marines. Up to 1940 these had to have civilian registrations and the Census Number was just that! From 1940, no tax disc was required, and the requirement to register vehicles (in the Middlesex County Council in practice) was abandoned in favour of reliance on the WD Number.

The Ministry of Supply with the Ministry of War Transport also acquired vehicles of all types for Government users, such as staff cars for official use, Air Ministry staff, Salvage Corps, local authorities, police, fire services, et al. These had civilian registrations either in Government-allocated batches by the Middlesex County Council, or by London County Council, or regional local authorities. In addition there were various ambulance authorities, church and religious groups, Ministry of Food, etc. vehicles that were often military types with civilian or military tyres but carrying civilian registrations.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I count perhaps three with 'RN' on the tank and four with civvy registrations. Given the standard uniforms were they donated m/cs? There are more shots in the series and it seems that an official visit was made to a CD HQ and the training school.

[ted angus]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

Jan, War Department Census Numbers were allocated to vehicles that were purchased, requisitioned, gifted to, or whatever and acquired by the Ministry of Supply for the War Office & Air Ministry, and by the Admiralty for the Royal Navy & Royal Marines. Up to 1940 these had to have civilian registrations and the Census Number was just that! From 1940, no tax disc was required, and the requirement to register vehicles (in the Middlesex County Council in practice) was abandoned in favour of reliance on the WD Number.

The Ministry of Supply with the Ministry of War Transport also acquired vehicles of all types for Government users, such as staff cars for official use, Air Ministry staff, Salvage Corps, local authorities, police, fire services, et al. These had civilian registrations either in Government-allocated batches by the Middlesex County Council, or by London County Council, or regional local authorities. In addition there were various ambulance authorities, church and religious groups, Ministry of Food, etc. vehicles that were often military types with civilian or military tyres but carrying civilian registrations.

David, regarding non military users: vehicles for the Home Office(Min Home of Security) and Scottish Office [i.e.pre- 41 AFS, NFS 41-48, CD rescue services] were aquired through contracts raised by the Office (later Ministry )of Works. In 1938 when the HO needed to start procuring vehicles and equipment to meet the deteriorating international situation, it did not have its own contracts and purchasing dept. With the permission of the Treasury they used the OoW resources for the task, a post -1948 HO report I have an extract from, gives this info and makes a point that the arrangement worked well and continued through the war. In addition all emergency fire fighting vehicles and equipment for use by HM forces and all other HMG ministries and depts for war emergency purposes were combined with HO requirements and contracted by the OoW, not the MoS.

Regarding census numbers you say WD census number ----------allocated for vehicles ...........for the War office, Air Min & Admiralty ?? was this statement a generalisation ?? WD numbers on RAF & RN vehicles ???

TED

[rewdco]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

This was a CD DR training school. Note the nice line-up of machines!

Thanks for sharing this one with us David!

This was the first time that I saw a "normal" picture with the rare "model CO" (not the "WD/CO", only 100 of these model CO's have been built, in two contracts of 50 each for the Royal Navy). I had only seen it in official Royal Enfield publicity pictures before...

Jan

(To Chris Vickery: sorry for hi-jacking your thread Chris... )

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

It is handy to have access toi so many photos! The shots are available to purchase as prints or scanned images at very reasonable rates from my contact. They were possibly originally from MOTOR CYCLING or THE MOTOR-CYCLE.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

It seems that the M of S inspected vehicles supplied under Contracts or Demands, and I can imagine that if a vehicle was not accepted by the Inspector after driven off the line, it was not taken into stock and thus allocated a number. Up until 1941 this may not have occurred simply because the demand was so great....delivery was all-important and rectification could be done later. After that there was a luxury of being able to get rectification work done in the factory before delivery. I can also imagine that the VRDs were swamped in practice by defects and this led to the call for remedial work to be carried out at source.

David,

All that makes perfect sense, with inexperienced labour, faults were bound to occur and with parts and facilities at the factory, it makes sense to rectify there, anyway, it is doubtful the MoS inspector would sign them out until they were in order. A thought has just occured, that perhaps the reason that census numbers are out of line with chassis numbers, is that any vehicle held back were not numbered until signed out. The VRD were no more than open storage areas, often on grass. They would accept vehicles, then issue from there once demands came in for that particular type.