#31
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David, as I am still learning here, I am not enough of an expert to tell the slightest nuances from one another between the Willys and Ford versions. The pictures aren't clear enough for me to surmise as to the manuafacturer.
This being said, I believe that neither is a CDLV 505 contract, but US spec versions. My reasoning on this; both pictures show the jeeps with the left hand fender mounted B/O light and guard and do not appear to have the lift rings as issued on 505 contract jeeps. The main difference from afar that one will note on 505 contracts is the absence of the fender B/O light as it is mounted in place of the LH headlight instead plus the addition of a bridge plate affixed over the RH headlight opening as well as the addition of the circular lifting rings. As an interesting note, you have perhaps answered the very question I had. You state a number, 8226 units built and delivered. On CDLV 505 there were 3000 built with an additional 2000 built on CDLV 241/242 for a total of 5000 units. A lttile simple math would show a difference of 3226 US spec units delivered to us, wouldn't it?
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3RD Echelon Wksp 1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC 1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC 1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army 1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR 1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer 1943 Converto Airborne Trailer 1983 M1009 CUCV RT-524, PRC-77s, and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and....... OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers |
#32
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ford
toolholes in front bumper=Ford
As Chris pointed out earlier the canadian contracts were for willys jeeps and not ford so this one would not be delivered straight from the factory but via the american/british army perhaps? resume: +-5000 willys via canadian contract, straight from the factory +-3000 ford/willys via american/british army? correct me if i'm wrong Wim
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In flanders fields the poppies blow. Between the crosses row on row. Last edited by wim sikkelbein; 23-11-06 at 16:37. |
#33
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GPW?
I always thought that the Canadian Liverpool Jeep was a GPW....at the same time British-order GPWs were being assembled in the works.
Don't forget that this was up to end April '45....and assembly only finished in September and October 1945 depending on company, and even then there were still "saloon cars" that were on their way to Canadian order [must be C8A HUPs I think] that the Ministry of Supply said could be assembled in one or two depots that would contunue working for some time. In that respect we know that GM Limited in Bamber Bridge, near Preston, and Cleckheaton, Yorkshire, continued on until 1946. However I discount them as they were and had been for some years, refurbishing works. I suspect that LEP Transport would have been the last Chevrolet assemblers, with CMD in Slough the last Ford assemblers. Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 23-11-06 at 18:16. |
#34
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I have since learned that there were in fact Contract Demands issued for further jeeps, but these contarct delivered to US spec.
These included: CDLV 1696 4000 units CDLV 1801 1000 units CDLV1802 1000 units Now as far as how many actually made it overseas is a mistery as some were destined to stay domestic with some being sent over to Europe. It is also possible that near wars end these contract may have not been totally fulfilled or possibly even cancelled. Apparently jeeps under these C/D were stock US spec, both Ford and Willys, and did not carry the special nuances that previous 505 contract did. This would also pertain to the special data plates as jeeps under the contracts supposedly wore the standard US style plates.
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3RD Echelon Wksp 1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC 1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC 1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army 1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR 1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer 1943 Converto Airborne Trailer 1983 M1009 CUCV RT-524, PRC-77s, and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and....... OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers |
#35
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Re: Re: Explanation
Quote:
Quote:
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
#36
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MVA
That's apparently a MVA company in Hedge End (Tidworth) Depot in Wiltshire [Salisbury Plain]
Source: http://www.army.mil/cmh/reference/No...TS/OD/OD13.htm Quote:
Last edited by David_Hayward (RIP); 28-11-06 at 20:26. |
#37
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If Canada placed an contract with Willys for jeeps to be built according to their specifications, they had to build them according to these specs. Otherwise they would not be accepted by the customer - period. Of course, for reasons of practicality as well as speed of manufacture, the paint should be the same on all Jeeps ("any colour you want, as long as it is OD!"), but the same is true for the other typical CDLV specs. Why bother with those pesky details like lighting, axle lamp switch, lift rings on the front bumper? These are exacty the reasons why later during the war Canada did no longer bother and bought its jeeps "off the shelf". But those CDLV spec jeeps were different from US spec ones. According to Brian's Military Jeeps (a recognised source), the Canadian MB's were not painted US olive drab, but the darker, browner 'Khaki No.3'. After aging, Khaki No.3 could actually look a lot close to OD, so it might be worthwile to further investigate if your jeep wasn't actually painted Khaki. H.
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
#38
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Thank you Hanno, certainly worth further investigation.
I recently aquired the original contract regarding the requirements of Willys as it pertained to the additional equipment and specifications set forth. All the forementioned items are included on the contract, it is quite detailed but nowhere does it specify paint colour???? One would tend to think that something like this would have been mentioned on the contract demand... hmmmm.
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3RD Echelon Wksp 1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC 1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC 1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army 1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR 1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer 1943 Converto Airborne Trailer 1983 M1009 CUCV RT-524, PRC-77s, and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and....... OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers |
#39
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Quote:
Could you share the contents of the original contract with us? Nowhere I can find the exact and complete details about CDLV jeeps. Some snippets here and there, it would be nice to compile a complete list of the specifications plus pictures here on MLU. Thanks, Hanno
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
#40
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cdlv paint
My Jeep is 242 contract. Underneath brackets that have never been removed is the original light OD.
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#41
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Hanoo, it is funny you should mention obtaining snippets here and there. this seems to be what I have been finding as well, as there is no definative one stop place to find all the info.
It seems some fellows with info are not exactly forthcoming in sharing, that is they hoard it for their own personal pleasure (its mine all mine mentality) At any rate, it would be good to put all the Canadian contract info in one place. I will try and get all the details down on the forum as time permits and I come across whatever I have. I do value the opinions of all in this discussion and surely arguements will crop up on specific points. As far as the colour thing goes, it seems to me that even the experts disagree on what is right or wrong. Going from the paint as it appears on parts of my 505 contract jeep, they certainly appear to my eye to be the same as US 33070 colour. Even the US based guys can't agree on specific colours on their own jeeps so this is one of these quandries that may or may not ever be answered. As for my jeep, it will be painted in standard US colour as found. Thoughts anyone?
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3RD Echelon Wksp 1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC 1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC 1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army 1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR 1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer 1943 Converto Airborne Trailer 1983 M1009 CUCV RT-524, PRC-77s, and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and....... OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers |
#42
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"Headlamp guard (R), Willys part no. A-5448"
Pic courtesy of Dirk Leegwater who has these for sale.
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
#43
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I don't think changing paint colour for a certain contract would be much of an issue for a manufacturer. We have seen how the commercial vehicles come down the line and are painted all different colours. It is not a big deal to change from khaki to OD or back again. I believe that if the Canadian contract was for a certain colour it would be done. Vehicles are scheduled days ahead so that the proper parts are in the right spot when the vehicle comes down the line. Just a thought.
Barry
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Every twenty minute job is one broken bolt away from a three day ordeal. |
#44
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Chris, could you share the contents of the original contract you have? H.
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
#45
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Single headlight with brush guard, but I cannot see lifting rings on the front bumper - CDLV 505 contract Jeep? H. Quote:
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
#46
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Another one with single headlight with brush guard - are those chains fitted to lifting rings on the front bumper?
Quote:
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
#47
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cdlv 242 jeep
public archives of canada
Troopers of the Three Rivers Regiment in a jeep, England, 22 July 1942 PA-213504 MIKAN No.: 3599654 cdlv 242 with mickey mouse camouflage
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In flanders fields the poppies blow. Between the crosses row on row. |
#48
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strange medic jeep
public archives of canada
Private F.J. Dunn resting on his ambulance jeep while evacuating casualties south of Bad Zwischenahn, Germany, 29 April 1945 PA-205395 MIKAN No.: 3586347 how about this one
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In flanders fields the poppies blow. Between the crosses row on row. |
#49
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Quote:
Also, what is the signification of the inverse triangle with the "X" under the windshield? Is it possible to know what are the colors of this marking?
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Guy aka M38CDNBill 1945 Willys MB 1942 Chevrolet G7107 |
#50
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After few researchs, I guess that marking is the previous sign (until the Dieppe raid or before 1943) of the 1st Armoured Brigade. I checked out a picture of the Dieppe raid and on the front of a 14th Armoured Regt tank (Calgary Regt), I saw the same sign and during the WWII, the Three Rivers Regt was in the same brigade.
Does somebody can confirm this affirmation?
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Guy aka M38CDNBill 1945 Willys MB 1942 Chevrolet G7107 |
#51
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If I ever get a Jeep
Thanks, Hanno for posting the picture of the CBC Jeep it lead to another photo which if I ever got a Jeep would be the number I'd use. I've collected all the recording gear shown on the hood as this is the same stuff used in the CBC HUPs and BBC trucks.
The Canadian Archives have more CBC photos of equipment that are not yet available over the web.
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Phil Waterman `41 C60L Pattern 12 `42 C60S Radio Pattern 13 `45 HUP http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/ New e-mail Philip@canadianmilitarypattern.com |
#52
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Re: photo - Troopers of the Three Rivers Regiment in a jeep, England, 22 July 1942
Quote:
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Cheers
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Mark |
#53
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Those who live by the sword will be shot by those of us who have progressed. - M38A1, 67-07800, ex LETE |
#54
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2 cents worth on paint
I have a Dodge wc55. It was painted in" Forest green" (Marine Corps colours) It was originally painted in "olive green",and I believe it to have been repainted in forest green before being issued to its Marine corp unit.
What I'm suggesting here is that, as big as the Marine Corp is, The factory didn't stop and clean out its paint gear and start again. When you think about it, all the components come from different areas, to meet at assembly. they are already painted on arrival, and go together to form the complete vehicle. Any variation in colour is going to be an extra on the assembly line, just as my Dodge's Marine Corp's "forest green was. To add weight to what i say, The Jeep bodies for both Ford and Willys from some time in 1943 were all contracted to the Budd company, the wheels were made by Kelsey, the axles by spicer, etc. All component parts came together at the factory, In the same way as there was no single manufacturer for the M1 carbine (no one company made all the bits) I would suggest (but dont know) Chris, that your Canadian contract Jeeps, were built as standard, and then taken to one side for the "superficial" "contractrual" requirements. If I am correct on this, and if indeed your Jeep was painted in Canadian Kahki, I believe it would be a "top coat"over the original olive.
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Bluebell Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991 Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6. Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6 Jeep Mb #135668 So many questions.... |
#55
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Survivor featured at G503.com
Military Jeep Model: Willys MB Serial Number: 155818 Frame Number: MB155818 Data Plate Material: Brass Date of Delivery: Thursday July 2nd, 1942 Submitted By: James Pringle Location of Jeep: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Notes/Comments: Vehicle was one of the 11000 that Canada bought during WW2. Has Willys script on rear panel and lifting rings as per the CDLV (Contract Demand Light Vehicle)505. It never went overseas but it was a sad mess after 50 plus years of abuse and hard weather. Reengined with a 2A engine now.
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
#56
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CDLV-242 data plate CDLV-505 data plate Courtesy of dataplates4u.com
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
#57
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sign writing in progress: "Unidentified soldier stencilling numbers on the hood of a jeep, England, 21 December 1943"
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
#58
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One more pic, in colour even. Source: canadiansoldiers.com.
Markings and unit, according to John McGillivray: -Division sign (yellow maple leaf on a blue background) indicates that it belongs to the 2nd Canadian Infantry Division. -The red over blue AoS with the number 42 - 4th Field Regiment Royal Canadian Artillery - Tac Sign - the blue square with the bottom left (viewers right) corner in red - the second battery of the Regiment - 14th Field Battery.
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
#59
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CDLV 241, 242 and The505 and others
The information provided by Wim quoting "the standerdised wartime jeep 1941-45" is quite wrong I believe as it does not match what I have observed in Canadian contract jeeps in the last 30 years of research. The WD numbers are wrong, as are the dates of production. CDLV 505 was produced in at least three distinct production batches so some are early stamped grille(no BODL, WILLYS script) and some have later features (BODL, no script, trailer sockets, Jerrycan carrier).
The CDLV 241, 242 and 505 jeeps did not have USA registration numbers assigned to the best of my knowledge. They were custom made by Willys for Canada. Some were crated at the Willys factory for shipment overseas (ref. CDLV 241/242 contract). All of these jeeps had the 4 lifting rings. Canada did indeed buy other "off the shelf" jeeps. I used to own a Ford GPW made in April 1943 that had been used at the Defence Research Board at Suffield, Alberta post-WWII and had a DND number. Last year I was given another 1943 Ford, likely ex-Canadian. I have encountered other ex-Canadian GPWs in Canada and most of these seem to be about April 1943 production. Overseas at the end of hostilities in Europe, Canada had quite a mix of Willys and Ford jeeps. COLIN
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Colin MacGregor Stevens, CD Richmond, BC |
#60
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Colin, my MB was mfg around Aug 31, 1942 or possibly Sept 1, 1942.
Trying to make it as correct as possible, I could therefore use a non script body, add the BODL assy and eliminate the lifting rings and still be OK?
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3RD Echelon Wksp 1968 M274A5 Mule Baifield USMC 1966 M274A2 Mule BMY USMC 1958 M274 Mule Willys US Army 1970 M38A1 CDN3 70-08715 1 CSR 1981 MANAC 3/4T CDN trailer 1943 Converto Airborne Trailer 1983 M1009 CUCV RT-524, PRC-77s, and trucks and stuff and more stuff and and....... OMVA, MVPA, G503, Steel Soldiers |
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