surviving T16s

[Mark W. Tonner]

[postings with pictures/information on surviving T16s split from the thread "Wartime T16 pictures" by moderator]

Hanno;

Came across this picture while I was looking for something else.
Although it's not a wartime picture of a T16, it's the 7th Cdn Inf Bde Memorial in Eede, Holland.

Cheers

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Although it's not a wartime picture of a T16, it's the 7th Cdn Inf Bde Memorial in Eede, Holland.

Ah yes, the T16 at Eede. The original National Monument is a reminder of the day on which Queen Wilhelmina returned to the Netherlands. Later the T16 was added, I remember reading about it in the regional newspaper which must have been some 20 years back already. It is an ex-Swiss T16, acquired from a collector in Germany. The top has been welded shut to keep the rain out, but I don't know why that strange headboard was added. At the time I thought it was the wrong type of carrier to use as a memorial, I know better now of course Last time I saw this T16 was with Geoff in 2000, when we were doing a one-day tour of the Scheldt area.

Do you now if the 7th Cdn Inf Bde actually used T16 carriers?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hanno;

It's not a wartime picture but: This is what happened to some of them eventually

Cheers

[G166UC]

Mr. Tonner,
I don"t suppose this is a recent picture of a T-16 in a local junkyard? Those fenders are still pretty straight! If this vehicle still exists, I need some of the parts off of it! Let me guess; This picture was taken about 20 years ago, and the yard has since been scrapped and is now an apartment complex.
Keep on scrounging, Rod Shaver

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
It's not a wartime picture but: This is what happened to some of them eventually

Mark,

Like Rod, I'd like to know where & when this picture was taken. But just out of interest, not to scrounge parts - I'll leave that to Rod as he asked first

The T16 in your picture had a much easier retirement compared to the T16s I saw in Pounds Yard in 1985, these had tons of heavy scrap steel piled on top of them

Regards,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

I recently came across this T16 on display at the National Infantry Museum at Fort Benning, USA. This was a new one to me.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Did the Polish Forces use T16s during WW2?

T16 at the "Muzeum Wojska Polskiego w Forcie IX", Warsaw, Poland:

Source: http://history.serw.com.pl/muzeum/t16.html

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Mark,

Like Rod, I'd like to know where & when this picture was taken. But just out of interest, not to scrounge parts - I'll leave that to Rod as he asked first

The T16 in your picture had a much easier retirement compared to the T16s I saw in Pounds Yard in 1985, these had tons of heavy scrap steel piled on top of them

Hi Guys;

The pictures are from Argentina, the junkyard one - no date; the two below: top one 1946-47 and the bottom one 1956, look at the vehicle on the left of this picture.

Have another picture from the Argentina Naval Museum to follow.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

From the Argentina Naval Museum:

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Bit of a follow-up regarding T16's in Argentina: In 1946-47 the Argentine government was able to procure hundreds of AFV's (including 302 T.16s, 280 for the Army and 24 for the "Infantería de Marina" (Marines). They carried 1x 7.65 model 1928 Colt water-cooled MG and 1x Madsen 7.65mm model 1927 MG. The Madsen was carried on a spintle mount. These carriers were US (Ford) built carriers, meant for "Lend Lease" and were British surplus stock disposed by the Belgians in Antwerp.

Cheers

[Garry Shipton (RIP)]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Did the Polish Forces use T16s during WW2?

Hi Hanno,
As I post I look up at my C15 model"Little Hanno",which has all boxes on both sides.Happy New Year.By the way,how is the newborn doing??Haven'heard anything,since the birth!!AS to your question,did not the Polish Divsion as part of the Canadian 2nd Div at The Falaise gap have T16s??Something to look into!!
Garry

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Garry Shipton
AS to your question,did not the Polish Divsion as part of the Canadian 2nd Div at The Falaise gap have T16s??Something to look into!!

Hi Garry, both boys are doing fine, thanks!

If you could find out more info re. the use of T16 by Polish forces - or any other Commonwealth forces - that would be great.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

T16 at the tank museum at Latrun, Israel.

New question: how many T16s were used by the Israeli defence Force? And when?


Source: http://www.thetankmaster.com/ENGLISH/AFV/Latrun_02.asp

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
The pictures are from Argentina, the junkyard one - no date; the two below: top one 1946-47 and the bottom one 1956, look at the vehicle on the left of this picture.

Mark,

Argentina, hmm, interesting... well Rod, what about a trip down there?

More info and pictures on Argentinean T16s can be found here: TANKS! > Argentina

Hanno

[G166UC]

Hanno,
I heard the weather is great down in Argentina this time of the year! I would love to go down there and find them! Where did you find the picture of the T-16 at Latrune? I was there about 3 years ago but did not see the T-16. I saw several MkII carriers.
Talk to you soon, Rod

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
T16 at the tank museum at Latrun, Israel.

New question: how many T16s were used by the Israeli defence Force? And when?

Can't answer that exactly, Hanno, but I know from a veteran's account that Windsors were in WIDE use in Palestine immediately post war... this old gentleman (a driver) remembers getting shot at on patrol regularly, by BOTH sides! He's currently resident in South Africa and we email occasionally.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
T16 at the tank museum at Latrun, Israel.

Hanno;

I have to agree with Rod, I've also been to the Israeli Armoured Corps Museum at Latrun and didn't see any T16's. The one in your post, I'm sure, is a No. 3 Mk II, if memory serves me correctly.

You asked: New question: how many T16s were used by the Israeli defence Force? And when?

At the start of the War of Independence in 1948, the Egyptian Infantry had 298 Universal Carriers and a number of Loyd Carriers were employed in the towing of their 6 pdr A/T guns, most of these Universal and Loyd carriers were captured and used by the Israelis, although, by the time of the 1956 Arab-Israeli conflict, they had been phased out of service in the IDF.

Most of what the Israelis where able to purchase prior to/during and immediately after the War of Independence came from Czech sources and did not include UC's of any type.

Hope this answers your question.

Examples of Captured Universal and Loyd Carriers in Israeli service:

Cheers

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by G166UC
Where did you find the picture of the T-16 at Latrune? I was there about 3 years ago but did not see the T-16. I saw several MkII carriers.

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
I have to agree with Rod, I've also been to the Israeli Armoured Corps Museum at Latrun and didn't see any T16's. The one in your post, I'm sure, is a No. 3 Mk II, if memory serves me correctly.

Well, all I can say is this picture was recently (12 Feb. 2004) added to the Tankmaster site and that it does show a T16, doesn't it? I realise that it doesn't automatically mean it was actually used by the IDF, as the museum is trading AFVs with other countries (like the Sheridan).

Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Can't answer that exactly, Hanno, but I know from a veteran's account that Windsors were in WIDE use in Palestine immediately post war... this old gentleman (a driver) remembers getting shot at on patrol regularly, by BOTH sides! He's currently resident in South Africa and we email occasionally.

Geoff, any information of this sort is welcome. Try to get some more details out of him and post it here.

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
At the start of the War of Independence in 1948, the Egyptian Infantry had 298 Universal Carriers and a number of Loyd Carriers were employed in the towing of their 6 pdr A/T guns, most of these Universal and Loyd carriers were captured and used by the Israelis, although, by the time of the 1956 Arab-Israeli conflict, they had been phased out of service in the IDF.

Might be worth checking if any of the Universal Carriers the Egyptians got were T16s:
1) According to the picture shown below, the French had T16s.
2) The French supplied AFVs to the Egyptians.
Who can add 1) and 2) together?

Hanno


Source: http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/bren-carrier.htm

[Hanno Spoelstra]

T16 T103519 at the Virginia Museum of Military Vehicles


Source: http://tanks2go.com/United_Kingdom/UKbren.htm

[G166UC]

Hanno,
The T-16 pictured at the Virginia Military Museum is owned by Allen Coors, and originally came from the Budge collection. It is one of the few original T-16s i n the country. What I mean is that it was not modified by the Swiss. It has all the original boxes, fuel tanks, gun mounts etc. as used by the British or Canadian Military. Some of the gun mounts in the T-16s were changed by the British when they recieved them. I guess the original factory brackets were not suitable for their purposes. I have never seen a T-16 with all of the original factory installed stowage brackets for the Bren Guns in the rear compartment, or the ones in the drivers compartment for the piat and bren guns.
Why did the French paint the spare roadwheel white?
Rod Shaver

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by G166UC
I heard the weather is great down in Argentina this time of the year! I would love to go down there and find them!

Rod, there is at least one guy in Argentina interested in T16s - if you look closely in the pic below you'll see one. Possibly worthwhile to try to contact this collector?


Source: http://www.aacvm.com.ar/albumfotos.php

[G166UC]

Hanno,
Go back to the Military vehicle Club of Argentina web site and go to the set of photos labeled "Encuentro Solidario 2002" There are some good photos of a T-16 (HIghly accessorized)
Rod

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by G166UC
Go back to the Military vehicle Club of Argentina web site and go to the set of photos labeled "Encuentro Solidario 2002" There are some good photos of a T-16 (HIghly accessorized)

Rod, thanks for the heads-up, it has been quite a while since I last had a proper look at that site.

I wonder if this "full option" version is authentic for the Argentine Army, or if this was artistic license on part of the restorer (like the proverbial .50 cal MG in the back of every other jeep )


Source: A.A.C.V.M. - Exposición "Encuentro Solidario" - Marzo 2002

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Bit of a follow-up regarding T16's in Argentina:

See Universal Carrier T16 en la IMARA for the history of T16s in Argentina (try here for a simple translation). Was this the source of the pictures you posted here, Mark?

H.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Was this the source of the pictures you posted here, Mark?

For two of the pictures in Argentina, yes.

Cheers

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Rod, thanks for the heads-up, it has been quite a while since I last had a proper look at that site.

I wonder if this "full option" version is authentic for the Argentine Army, or if this was artistic license on part of the restorer (like the proverbial .50 cal MG in the back of every other jeep )

McSpool, you'd know better than I; this picture I had to download and then tweak to see the roadwheel arrangement. Is there something strange about the layout, I thought the springs always faced "outwards" on a T16, not the same way.
:

R.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by FV623
Is there something strange about the layout, I thought the springs always faced "outwards" on a T16, not the same way.
:

R.
You are very observant, just checked my T16 TM and the rear bogie is assembled wrong way around, probably an apprentice job, they would get the blame anyhow.

Richard

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
You are very observant, just checked my T16 TM and the rear bogie is assembled wrong way around, probably an apprentice job, they would get the blame anyhow.

Well, that's comforting to know, not really observant as such, but its the only way a non-expert "Bren Carrier" person like me can readily identify a T16 from the others, the Windsor especially which does have the springs arranged like this; the picture as sent just showed the hint of something different and I just had to see what was really going on.

The apprentice theory is a good one, do you think perhaps this is why Bovington's KK has the right side tracks on backwards, dissimilar roadwheels side to side, and hacksawed-off rear bars? Since it was captured undamaged after some 2 weeks service with the Wehrmacht and pristine when originally placed in the museum, this is strange. I digress, sorry.

R.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
You are very observant, just checked my T16 TM and the rear bogie is assembled wrong way around, probably an apprentice job, they would get the blame anyhow.

An apprentice job indeed, that is what I first thought as well.

However, earlier this week I read Universal Carrier T16 en la IMARA. According to this article, in 1947 between ten to twenty T16E2s were acquired from the US by the Argentine Marines. The T16E2 was slightly longer (13'6" vs. 12'11" for the T16) and the bogies were moved rearward with the rear bogie being reversed. There were other detail differences, but popular belief has it the T16E2 did not get past the prototype phase. If however the Argentine Marines indeed got a batch of T16E2s, the one pictured here could possibly the only surviving T16E2...

H.