Alligators and Buffaloes

[Gunner]

Hi All:

Looking for the unit(s) (and markings of same) for the amphibious transport companies that would have carried the SD&G Highrs ashore at Normandy or for the Rhine Crossing (with a preference for the Rhine Crossing).

I've just finished cleaning up a Mk 1 Alligator which will become a gate guard at the SD&G armouries in Cornwall. Before all the pundits launch their assaults; let me assure you that we (the SD&G and I) are aware that Canada did not use the Mk 1 Alligator, however, it is representative of the type of vehicle they used to invade the Nazi heartland. The plaque will read something along the lines of:

"Robling's Alligator Mk 1 manufactured in Florida c. 1940.

Vehicles like this were used to carry Allied troops ashore on amphibious assaults all over the world. The Canadian Army used a number of similar vehicles in the flooded polders of Holland in 1944 and 45. This one has been marked to represent one of the XXX amphibious carriers. The XXX transported the Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders across the Rhine river for the final assault on Hitler's heartland in March 1945."

A history of the specific vehicle and its provenance will be placed in the unit's museum to ensure that the public are not misled.

Any advice on appropriate markings will be much appreciated as Army level transport units are way outside my area of expertise.

Cheers! Mike

[Ponysoldier]

Im not sure that this could have been used At the Remaden crossing as the river on the farside banks were walls.
The 293rd engineers(US) completed 2 of these and still is the record for afloat bridge.That is not to say that there were not other crossings,and I could be wrong and would'nt first time...Patrick

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Gunner
Looking for the unit(s) (and markings of same) for the amphibious transport companies that would have carried the SD&G Highrs ashore at Normandy or for the Rhine Crossing (with a preference for the Rhine Crossing).

I've just finished cleaning up a Mk 1 Alligator which will become a gate guard at the SD&G armouries in Cornwall. Before all the pundits launch their assaults; let me assure you that we (the SD&G and I) are aware that Canada did not use the Mk 1 Alligator, however, it is representative of the type of vehicle they used to invade the Nazi heartland. The plaque will read something along the lines of:

Mike, it was the British 79th Armoured Division ("Hobart's funnies") who operated the LVT II and LVT IV Buffalo (not Alligator) in Europe. The Commonwealth forces did not use LVTs during D-Day (the US Army did shortly after 6 June). Will have to look up the units operating the Buffalos during the crossing of the Rhine later.

H.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Gunner
Vehicles like this were used to carry Allied troops ashore on amphibious assaults all over the world. The Canadian Army used a number of similar vehicles in the flooded polders of Holland in 1944 and 45. This one has been marked to represent one of the XXX amphibious carriers. The XXX transported the Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders across the Rhine river for the final assault on Hitler's heartland in March 1945."

Hi Mike;

The SD&G crossed the Rhine in Buffalos crewed by either 4 RTR or 1 Northants Yeomanry of 33rd Armd Bde/79th Armd Div, haven't figured out which yet. The 9th Cdn Inf Bde were under command of the 51st (H) Div for the assault crossing of the Rhine.

Cheers

[John McGillivray]

There are no clues in the SDGH Regimental history as to which units of 79th Div lifted them. However there is one photo dated 9th Oct. 1944 at Hoofdplaat.

[Gunner]

Hi All:

Patrick, Hanno, Mark and John (gee, sounds like a bunch of apostles! )- thanks for the quick responses. This forum and its membership is quite amazing!

I'll put either 4 RTR or 1 Northants Yeomanry of 33rd Armd Bde/79th Armd Div on. If I can't get a specific unit confirmed I may leave the number on the Bde tac sign off.

John's photo confirmed something I already suspected... big numbers were painted on the sides for beachmasters and, I imagine, "passengers" to refer to. I like the idea of a nickname and the one front and centre in John's photo appears to be "Marlborough", Churchill's Grandpa! I can't tell if Ike's big invasion stars are still present at this stage in the war... I know that many had been painted over in the process of going to winter cammy and back. Its always fun explaining to our cousins to the South why Canadian and British vehicles frequently had the star painted lopsided or upside down! I'll see what the SD&G vets association wants as far as the stars go.

Any further details would be most welcome and I'll send pictures to Hanno to post for me... I know, I'm such a luddite!

Cheers! Mike

[kevinT]

that the name maybe Scarborough. An LVT belonging to 11th RTR, 79th Armoured Division.

Cheers
Kevin

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Mike;

The unit that would have transported the SD&G across the Rhine, would have been 1 Northants Yeomanry (33rd Armd Bde), they were the 'Buffalo' equipped unit in support of the 154th (H) Inf Bde of the 51st (H) Div, 9th Cdn Inf Bde having crossed to both reinforce the 154th Bde bridgehead and to relieve them.

4 RTR were in support of the 153rd (H) Inf Bde.

Cheers

[kevinT]

If the 1st Northants Yeomanry kept the same names as used on their tanks?
If yes, then the name of the LVT a couple of postings up could be Litchborough. A name used on a Sherman Mk I.

Cheers
Kevin

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by kevinT
If the 1st Northants Yeomanry kept the same names as used on their tanks?
If yes, then the name of the LVT a couple of postings up could be Litchborough. A name used on a Sherman Mk I.

Cheers
Kevin

Hi Kevin;

From what I've been able to figure out, I would say that they carried over their use of Northamptonshire 'place' names when they converted to 'Buffalos' from Shermans.

and for Mike (Gunner);

Haven't been able yet to figure out the actual AoS marking used by 1st Northants Yeomanry at the time of the Rhine crossing. 33rd Armd Bde Orbat during this time period kept changing.

Cheers

[John McGillivray]

The photo that I posted was from the operations on the Scheldt Estuary in October 1944, and not the Rhine crossing in March 1945.I don't think that the Armoured Regiments of 33rd Armoured Brigade were yet part of 79th Armoured Division in October 1944. It is my understanding that they only became part of the 79th, and re-equipped with Buffalos just before the Rhine crossing.

Kevin’s first suggesting, 11th RTR is probably correct. They did serve in the Scheldt. Below is a photo of a LVT II from 11th RTR.

[John McGillivray]

In CMHQ report 188 it states that the Buffaloes used in the Scheldt by 9th CIB were from the 5th Assault Regiment RE of the 1st Assault Brigade, and not from 11th RTR.

Para 128

“128. Actually 9 Cdn Inf Bde had transported the necessary complement of tracked landing vehicles some 40 slow and tedious miles to the docks north of Ghent, where training with these unfamiliar "vehicle-craft", or buffaloes, on the Terneuzen Canal began in some haste on 6 Oct. Allotting the appropriate assault scales was no small problem. The solution gave each of the two forward infantry battalions six L.Vs.T. Mk II to carry personnel, and 39 or 40 Mk IVs for smaller vehicles. Similar allotments were made for Tactical and Main Brigade Headquarters, one heavy mortar platoon and one machine gun company. Nothing larger than a carrier could be taken aboard and in personnel strength companies were limited to 90, including their officers. The force was divided into four groups: the Assault Group, comprising Nth N.S. Highrs, H.L.I. of C. and Tactical Brigade Headquarters; the Follow-Up Group, with S.D. & G. Highrs, one platoon of "D" Coy, C.H. of O. (M.G.) and their 4.2-inch mortars, "C" Coy C.H. of O. (M.G.), and Main Brigade Headquarters; the Build-Up Group including one company of 23 Cdn Fd Amb and the rest of the jeeps, carriers and anti-tank guns; and the Residue Group. (See Appx "A" to this report.) Both the equipment and the specialized assistance required were supplied by 5 Aslt Regt R.E. of 1 Aslt Bde (79 Armd Div) which had the task of landing 9 Cdn Inf Bde on the beaches. Additional sappers of 18 Cdn Fd Coy R.C.E. and 149 Aslt Pk Sqn R.E. were to be responsible for preparing and maintaining exits from the beaches for vehicles, marking the routes, fixing beacons and making smoke. (Battle Narrative, Historical Officer, H.Q. 3 Cdn Inf Div.)”

From APPENDIX "A"

9 Cdn Inf Bde Gp
H.L.I. of C.
Nth N.S. Highrs
S.D. & G. Highrs

(a) With Under Command
"C" Coy, C.H. of O. (M.G.)
One platoon "D" Coy, C.H. of O. (M.G.)
One section 18 Cdn Fd Coy
One company 23 Cdn Fd Amb
One platoon, R.C.A.S.C.

(b) In Support
15 Cdn Fd Regt, R.C.A.
19 Cdn Army Fd Regt (S.P.), R.C.A.
10 Med Regt with u/c 20 Bty of 59 Hy Regt (155 mm guns)
342 H.A.A. Bty and C.T.P. 557 S.L. Bty
5 Aslt Regt, R.E. of 1 Aslt Bde
Elements 149 Aslt Bde

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dhh/downloads/cmhq/cmhq188.pdf

[RWDiesel]

Originally Posted by kevinT

that the name maybe Scarborough. An LVT belonging to 11th RTR, 79th Armoured Division.

Cheers
Kevin

Hello

Thought i'd post the photo of scarborough this time showing the full name.



Added some info to the foto for copyright reasons.

Cheers Ronald

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally Posted by RWDiesel

Hello

Thought i'd post the photo of scarborough this time showing the full name.



Added some info to the foto for copyright reasons.

Cheers Ronald

Hi Ronald;

Good find!

I've been meaning to post the remarks below in regards to the photo that John posted from the SD&G history, but I forgot ...

I have found another copy of this photo, which shows the head of a soldier in the lower left hand corner of the photo itself. This soldier is wearing the cap badge of the King's Own Scottish Borderers (155 Brigade/52 (Lowland) Division). Also, the soldier standing at the top of the ramp of the Buffalo, next to 'SCARBOROUGH", wearing a greatcoat and facing the camera, is wearing the cap badge of the Royal Tank Regiment. I do not believe that this photo is that of the SD&G Highrs (9 Brigade/3 Canadian Infantry Division) and Buffalos of 5 Assault Regiment, R.E. at Hoofplaat on 9 October 1944.

As part of Operation INFATUATE I, 4 Commando and 155 Brigade, made an amphibious assault across the Scheldt, from Breskens to Flushing on 1 November 1944, carried by the Buffalos of 11 RTR. I believe that the posted photo is of the 'embarking' of 4 KOSB, the vanguard of 155 Brigade's assault, and was taken on 31 October 1944 at Breskens and that the Buffalo is in fact "Scarborough" of C Sqn, 11 RTR.

Cheers