40 mm Bofors AA guns made in GB and US

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

My Census List shows various Morris Commercial Cars Contracts that might relate: 'Carrier Predictor AA no 3 SPM' to V3957 that included 'Carrier 40 mm SPM', plus V672 'Carrier AA Pred 40 mm Mk III', and V4497, 'Carrier Predictor AA no 3 SPM' and 'Carrier Predictor 40 mm SPM'. All had 'S' prefixes. Note that these were deemed self-propelled units by late 1944 though they could have had 'H' prefixes previously as tractors [as per F60B] with suitable trailers. Does anyone know if this surmise is correct please? As Stelland commented with justification I think:

So I think that when there were enough trucks available the Predictors were put on a truck platform ready for use instead of beeing transported in crates on a trailer.

Note the C8/P has a very similar chassis to the 'normal' and Airportable 17-pounder Anti-tank Mk 111 truck. Were there surplus MCC Predictors by the end of 1943, hence C8/P trucks were able to be converted by MCC in Birmingham to A/T Mk 111 as well as the C8/MG Portees and some FAT Mk III. Stelland's suggestion that the conversion of Bofors trucks to self-propelled independent units, with Predictors placed on spare trucks makes sense...timing is right for both MCC and Ford 'conversions' and also the making surplus of C/8P trucks for their new role.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by David_Hayward

My Census List shows various Morris Commercial Cars Contracts that might relate: 'Carrier Predictor AA no 3 SPM' to V3957 that included 'Carrier 40 mm SPM', plus V672 'Carrier AA Pred 40 mm Mk III', and V4497, 'Carrier Predictor AA no 3 SPM' and 'Carrier Predictor 40 mm SPM'.

For more information about the Predictor device see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerrison_Predictor

However, I am looking for pictures of the 'Carrier Predictor AA no 3 SPM', also known as Morris-Commercial C8/P SP Predictor.

Who can help?

Thanks,
Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

However, I am looking for pictures of the 'Carrier Predictor AA no 3 SPM', also known as Morris-Commercial C8/P SP Predictor.

Here is a picture of a preserved example as found on Miliblog:


Who knows of other survivors or has wartime pictures of this type of vehicle?

Thanks,
Hanno

[m606paz]

Hi Fellows
Our Bofors in sanding process to late painting.











We need search a correct tires and wheels, and I need a correct manual to see any drawing about Juhasz Gamma loelemkepzo predictor sight. Our sigth is disassembly a now need assembly.
Regards!

[m606paz]

After sanding be clean all the parts before paint





Our Bofors belong to the Argentine Army

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
My Census List shows various Moris Commercial Cars Contracts that might relate: 'Carrier Predictor AA no 3 SPM' to V3957 that included 'Carrier 40 mm SPM', plus V672 'Carrier AA Pred 40 mm Mk III', and V4497, 'Carrier Predictor AA no 3 SPM' and 'Carrier Predictor 40 mm SPM'. All had 'S' prefixes.

Note the C8/P has a very similar chassis to the normal and Airportable 17-pounder. Were there surplus MCC Predictors by the end of 1943, hence C8/P trucks were able to be converted by MCC in Birmingham as well as the C8/AG and A/T Mk III?

Carrier Predictor AA no 3 SPM = truck carrying the Kerrison Predictor (no 3 Predictor).

Carrier 40 mm SPM = truck carrying the Bofors gun.

Carrier AA Pred 40 mm Mk III and Carrier Predictor 40 mm SPM seems to be the same thing only that different persons have written the orders different.

Could SPM mean "Self Propelled Morris"?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

'Self Propelled Mounting' I was told though I have no confirmation..the F60B rebuilds/conversions were also by late 1944 'SPM 40 mm'. Stelland, could these as I said have been rebuilds by MCC, Birmingham from 'H' prefixed tractors? Comments please Morris Men!

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Self Propelled Mounting. Of course - but that I thought should be to logical for the British Army.

Signing off for a few hours. Must perform a wedding.

"We´ll meet again - don´t know where - dont know when ---"

Stellan

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by David_Hayward

The above shots of Ford Model C39Q F60B Bofors trucks dates from 1943...Canadian made guns?

Are you certain the pictures actually date from 1943, David? These trucks look like 1945 build Fords, with notable features such as the sling/tie-down hubs and "Ford Canada" stamped under the headlights.
I am going to hazard a guess that these may be Canadian built guns, nothing certain but the different colour shades in the paint (How poor an argument is that?). On Australian built Bofors all wartime pics I've seen show one overall colour, probably Khaki No3 (See Hanno's Aussie Self-Propelled Chev). In Australian pics that mention "Guns from Canada" or similar, the gun seems a darker colour with a paler painted Autoloader cover (Compare the Pearsons pics with the Aussie Ford SP truck). Is that valid or just a coincidence?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

These trucks are lined up near the Pearsons' Shaw Street, Liverpool works. The bombed out buildings have in some cases been converted it says to EWS, emergency water supply tanks for the National Fire Service.

These are of course nearly unique as '1943' Models so far as designation is concerned..C39Q. In common with other 1943-delivery Fords assembled say by Lep in Goole, they have the 'FORD CANADA' stamped on the fenders. However as these are newly-assembled they have the 'H' prefixes as tractors as I said before. There were 20 trucks lined up! The spring 1944 shot shows thse type of trucks modified as SPMs with 'S' prefixes.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

The "softskin" SP was originally a "private" idea of Nuffield engineers that rebuilt some C 8 FAT:s for the Coventry Home Guard.

It is said that they made an uninvited demonstration in Horse Guards Parade. The Army adopted the idea and the SP Bofors came into service in summer 1944.

As earlier mentioned GB ordered the first guns from Bofors in May 1937 and also aquired the license to produce guns. Totally 509 guns were ordered in Bofors. Bofors placed the production of these guns in Belgium (Fabrique Nationale), Poland (Starachowice) and Hungary (Mavag). It seems that many of these guns were not delivered before Belgium and Poland were overrun by Germany.

According to plans GB should have 1.000 Bofors guns in 1938 but in reality zero.

The fist GB produced Bofors gun was made by Nuffield and ready 15th June 1939. Loosing guns at Dunkirk GB AA Command despite the Nuffield production running only had 273 Bofors guns for the defence of UK in July 1940.

A number of guns had also been sent to Malta, Egypt, Syria e t c and later Far East. During the period up to September 1940 only 29 Bofors guns were added to AA Command - the rest sent to other places.

On 15th September 1940 the number of Bofors guns available for AA Command was 502.

Motorization of the GB AA was "ad hoc" until spring 1941 when four AA Reg:ts of wich two light were motorized.

In September 1942 AA Command had 1.414 Bofors guns and another 142 were delivered in October 1942. But when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor more than 200 guns were sent to USA and also a large number to Singapore.

I have came across a figure that 1.400 carriages were made by Case Iron Works (Where?).

Picture: Minister of Labour Ernest Bevin adressing workers from a MK III gun on a MK II carriage.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

So far I have found out these Bofors factories in GB.

1. Nuffield, Coventry
2. Waygood-Otis, London
3. A. Reyrolle & Co, Hebburn

Edited 4th March 2005: Also:
4. Royal Ordnance Factory, Nottingham
5. Bristol Aircraft

But a large quantity was produced for the Navy. I do not know more than that Nuffield produced mobile Army Bofors guns.

Does the factory-uniform worn by these girls give anybody a clue?

Stellan

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Prompted by interest in Bofors guns, I have placed an enquiry relating to this thread in FOR SALE OR TRADE.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

See Bofors 40mm AA Gun UK for some pictures of a nicely restored 40-mm Bofors.
Excuse my ignorance, but could anyone date this example and tell me where it was built?

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Wonderful picture, Hanno!

Obviously a Mk I gun on Mk I carriage. Sights lacking but from the sigths holders I se that there should be a "Polish" sight - in fact a Bofors m/38 FC,

Where did you find it? Mk I survivors are seldom found. Mk III on Mk II carriages we have several of.

For Rob I can confirm (consulting Jarkko Vihavainen in Finland) that your ItK/38 U is made by Mavag in Hungary. U = Unkarilainen = Hungary.

Attached: ItK/38 B nr 52. B = Bofors.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
could anyone date this example and tell me where it was built?

If the gun is in Volkel AFB (NL) it should be one of the KL Lua guns.

12 from Sweden (m/35 nickname "Wilhelmina")
24 from Poland (of 40 ordered)
10 from Hungary (of 50 ordered)

Then the war stopped deliveries to NL.

If the sights should be on the gun I think I could give you a correct answer. Belgian or Swedish made should have Bofors m/35 FC sights, Polish m/36 Goerz and Hungarian Gamma-Bofors m/38 FC.

Date:Pre 1940.
Where built: impossible. Four factories possible.

Cheers (I have just returned from our local pub )

Stellan

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
See Bofors 40mm AA Gun UK for some pictures of a nicely restored 40-mm Bofors.

On picture 8 the delivery trade marks are almost visible. Last picture is a NL Naval gun.

Looking at the picture posted above it seems that the gun has a Bofors m/38 FC sight calculator.

The gun is not British made. There are four possible producers:

1. Sweden (Bofors)
2. Poland (Starachowice)
3. Hungary (Mavag)
4. Belgium (Fabrique Nationale)

Of these I think Poland probably is the birthplace and the year 1939 or possibly 1938.

But there is another possibility. In 1939 Bofors in Sweden got an order from Portugal. These guns were made in 1940 but due to the ongoing war they were not delivered (by rail through Germany, France and Spain) before 1943. Portugal sold them some years ago and I have come across such one at a British collector.

Stellan

[nuyt]

Enclosed a picture of a Dutch Bofors in winter 39/40.
Dutch Army had 45 Bofors 40l60tl and Albarda/Kroesen (Nederlands geschut sinds 1677- source of picture) states 36 were acquired from Poland, the remainder from Sweden, Hungary and Italy (?).
De Jong says: 12 from Sweden, 24 from Poland and 10 from Hungary= 46.
Nuyt

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Hello and thanks for that picture!

I will try to have a closer look at the sights. I got the production figures from Poland yesterday. Compiling what I have got so far for the Netherlands are:

12 made in Sweden (Bofors) with Bofors m/35 FC sights
24 made in Poland (Starachowice) sights? of 40 ordered.
10 made in Hungary (Mavag) probably Gamma sights of 50 ordered.

So NL on 10th May 1940 had 46 Bofors guns. Some of these were in 1940 handed over by the Germans to Finland.

The ex-NL guns made in Sweden were m/35 and was in Finland labeled ItK/35 and nicknamed "Wilhelmina".

The Artillerie Inrichtingen were planning production of guns and already made munition - when the Germans attacked.

No Bofors guns made in Italy.

Greetings from a rainy Stockholm

Stellan

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
Where did you find it? Mk I survivors are seldom found. Mk III on Mk II carriages we have several of.
(...)
If the gun is in Volkel AFB (NL) it should be one of the KL Lua guns.
(...)
Portugal sold them some years ago and I have come across such one at a British collector.

It is owned by a private individual living quite near to where I live. I don't know where he got it by I would almost certainly ruly out it is an ex-KL Lua gun (we lost ours in 1940). Portugual seems to be the most likely source, they held on to lots of WW2-vintage equipment until well into the 1980's. Like you noted, luckily many of these found their way into the hands of collectors.

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
Wonderful picture, Hanno!

Here are two more, this time wartime colour pictures showing a Canadian-crewed Bofors gun:
- http://www.accaan.net/archivesnorman...HD/p004595.jpg
- http://www.accaan.net/archivesnorman...HD/p004596.jpg
Source: http://www.archivesnormandie39-45.org/rech.php

H.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

1944 "Stiffkey-Stick" sights on the first two,

Greetings,

Stellan

[Rob Fast]

This is a little off topic, there is what looks like a large wooden mallet strapped onto the platform. Also what are the box's mounted at the gunners feet hold? Any pics or info? I am loving this thread! Cheers Rob

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

1. What is a wooden mallet?

2. The boxes on the platform near the gunlayers foot pedals are containg the sights. On "Hanno´s gun" the sights are not attached but probably still in their boxes.

3. Sights were removed when transporting the gun.

4. This gun is in mint condition. Note brake-rope and spade at the end of the carriage.

Stellan

[Bill Murray]

I am not sure what they called such a wooden mallet on a Bofors list of equipment, but in the Marine Corps such a tool was:

Tool-Universal M1A1
"This tool is issued for the purpose of making temporary repairs where standard issue tools fail to accomplish the task or where there is no standard issue tool for the particular failure. Generally a smart bash on the offending part/parts will get the broken part/parts functioning again.
In cases of extreme emergency, Tool-Universal M1A1 may also be used as a substitute Personal Small Arm. Experience has shown it is best used by first swinging the tool in an arc at the offending enemy and then smartly using a sharp downward stroke once the enemy is down.
Due to the extreme simplicity of Tool-Universal M1A1 there are no standard maintenance procedures however field reports indicate Duct Tape is an effective repair medium for minor damages"


Cheers
Bill

[Gunner]

Hi Bill:

When I was a young Gunner, my Detachment Commander, a Sgt known for his violent mood swings, called it the "Tools, Adrenaline Flow Inducing, Canadian Mark I"!

He used to induce our adrenaline flow by having us run around the Gun Position waving it over our heads... the number of laps equalled the size of our indiscretion or screw-up. Damn thing got pretty heavy around lap three or four (our Gun Positions are about 300metres across)!

We were always convinced that if we screwed up badly enough he would use it to pound personal parts of our body into a messy paste!

Cheers! Mike

[Woj]

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud


I will try to have a closer look at the sights. I got the production figures from Poland yesterday. Compiling what I have got so far for the Netherlands are:

24 made in Poland (Starachowice) sights? of 40 ordered.

Not at all, Stellan. Polish guns for Netherlands had Goerz sights (I wrote you about this detail). And there was two agreements with Netherlands - first, signed not later than in April 1938 (48 guns), and second, signed not later than 1 February 1939 (40 guns). Guns were produced not only in Starachowice, but also in Rzeszow (H. Cegielski S.A.).

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Yes, you are right Woj!

The first guns bought by Great Britain and the Netherlands from Poland had "Polish sights" = Goerz.

Later deliveries from Sweden (and possibly also Poland) to Great Britain had open cross-wire "spider-web" sights.

So far I know that 16 guns intented for GB was delivered to Finland in 1940. The Finns (VTT state factory) made m/38 Bofors FC sights for those.

Attached a m/36 gun (Belgian, Polish and Swedish looked the same) = British Mk I.

Stellan

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Enclosed a picture of a Dutch Bofors in winter 39/40.
Nuyt

I would say that this gun has Hungarian Johasz-Gamma sights and thus was made by Mavag. I am not 100% sure but it is not a Polish Goerz sight.

But I am very uncertain so far.

Stellan

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
Enclosed a picture of a Dutch Bofors in winter 39/40.

According to book "Boforskanonen" Stockholm 1961 (source of picture) this should be a British gun. I am not sure but the sights and the calculator looks similar to those on the NL gun.

EDITED: Early type Zeiss sights.